Another (worse) Motor Trend Embarassement

Michelin Pilot Super Sports are standard in USA and Europe. They are identical all over the world and quite possibly the best performance tire out there right now. Motor Trend was full of it in this test. They are the only magazine to get results like this. Either that or the Corvette is really that good on a road course. After all, it did beat the 640hp SRT Viper in handling tests.

 

The tyres on the F12 had a different code to the ones we have over here but also to the Supersports of the Vette. As for tyres in general, I prefer the P Zeros.

 

Maybe, however if memory serves me right all that code is is a manufacturer code. Porsche for instance has an N0, N1, N2 code for their Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. I could be wrong though. But I don't see how a code makes that much of a difference.

The Corvette had run flat versions of the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. When Chevy was developing the C6 ZR1, they found that the run flat version of the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 had better performance than the regular version.

 

And just to add more confusion, here's a clipping from the Buyers' Guide section in the October issue of MT. The "*" is apparently for "estimated" numbers.
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Here's what they say about the C7 in their Buyers' Guide.
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I think Chris Harris was basically saying "enough power" on the old 599, and that has been true of the monster AMG Mercs for a while -- basically you shred tires while not going faster.

Hopefully Ferrari can get the successor to the F12 below 3750 lbs or whatever it is. Porsche seems to have mastered lightness in the 981/991 range. Ferrari needs to respond. Chassis engineering seems to be the path forward now that anyone can produce more than enough power.

All that San Pellegrino water for the cows makes the leather more supple.

 

2013 Porsche 911 Carrera 4S PDK Test ? Review ? Car and Driver

4WD
"psychic automatic transmission" aka PDK
400 hp
0-60 is 4.0s

competition:
Aston Martin V8 Vantage Coupe
Maserati GranTurismo Coupe
Nissan GT-R
BMW M3 Coupe


Better than F12 with 731 hp and <3s 0-60. Really?

And saying a Corvette is a better driver's car is just laughable IMVHO.

 

I have been following this thread and agree that there are some "oddities" in the MT reporting and measurements that do not jive with other reports. It is of course possible that there were issues with this particular F12 example: that is why a good test will either take a factory example thereby putting the onus on the factory to make sure that alignment is correct; systems are working right, tires, brakes etc. Or barring that, the tester has an obligation to verify the status of the car to be tested themselves. This was done for example in Road and Track's test of three V8s supercars. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 vs Ferrari 458 Italia vs McLaren MP4-12C &#8211; 3 Kings Supercar Comparison Test &#8211; RoadandTrack.com - Road & Track MT did none of this, and this strikes me as amateurish at the very least. They must be aware that countless enthusiasts hang on the results of these staged "clashes."

Then there are the imponderables. I have dealt with journalists of all stripes long enough to know that they are subject to biases, group think, and often are not above plain fabrications. I have learned over the years that when you are presented with a journalistic result that seems wrong, it usually is.

In a nutshell, while this test is "interesting," you have to weigh it against all of the other reports that we know about and those yet to come.

 

Interesting note today. I weighed my 2011 911 Turbo today and guess what....

It weighed more than the 458!

3,454.89 pounds

 

+12

The F12 is probably one of the best cars on the market right now..

 

+1200!
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Say it isn't so! Someone call Chris Harris now.. Porsche lies about their numbers!!!


From Edwards:
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+1 the F12 is fantastic, all this other BS is just NOISE.

 

I'm starting to think Motor Trend lied about the curb weight of the Jaguar F-Type too... Jaguar quotes 3,671 pounds for the V8 S. Motor Trend got 3,965 pounds....The same sort of discrepancy as the F12...coincidence? I think not. I did a quick search, and it seems they are the only magazine to weigh it, just like the F12....hmm...

For the F12, 3,667 pounds with full electric seats and 3/4 tank makes sense (this is from the other thread). 1/4 tank does not magically add 300+ pounds to a car. The carbon fiber seats would bring the weight down near Ferrari's claim of 3,594 pounds so I believe their claim is truthful IMVHO. They didn't lie about the weight, unlike Lamborghini with the Aventador.

And now that I think about it, maybe Lamborghini didn't lie. 3,472 pounds dry would be around 3750-3800 pounds wet with all the fluids it holds. Motor Trend got 3,817 at first in Europe with a pre production car, then 4100~ pounds in the USA. Car and Driver got 4,085 pounds. Road and Track got 3,795 pounds from a pre production car. I believe it was Road and Track that mentioned something about the carbon fiber being changed from the pre production cars.

I would imagine Ferrari has gotten in touch with Motor Trend. Their test results are very fishy and I'm sure Ferrari realizes this.

USA and Euro magazines were getting similar curb weights of the 599 GTB Fiorano. Sport Auto got 3,880 pounds and Road and Track got 3,865 pounds curb and 4,035 pounds with test equipment and driver. Motor Trend quoted 4,000lbs curb. That's a big difference from the other two magazines.

Oh and by the way, the 911 Turbo does not weigh 3,075 pounds. That is for a base 911 Carrera with a manual. Porsche did not lie about their numbers, Edmunds simply made a typo. Porsche quotes the new 2014 911 Turbo S at 3,538 pounds.

THIS +1000, I'll take mine in Tdf Blue.
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Does it really matter what they claim it weighed? It did what it did during the test. The magazine can say it was 4000kg or 1000kg. It's just a number. The results are what they are.

 

There will be a follow up from MT ,I'm sure.
No way would they intentionally lie or distort the test,for what purpose?!
To aggravate Ferrari people and lose one of the best perks available to auto journos?
It will be explained one way or the other,as either an unforgivable error on the part of MT or an admission that US cars are somewhat different from the cars in Europe.
On the other hand,to believe that there was some idiotic conspiracy or doubt in the skills of Randy Pobst is utter lunacy though......

 

MT raised similar uproar recently w/the outgoing ZR1 handing it to the newly-introduced Gen V Viper (Fiat can't win!). In that case, SRT came back with the Viper "TA" (Pontiac's done w/the handle, right?) and got their number. Maybe Ferrari brings a focused F12 GTO next time? Either way, everything's pretty good these days so tough to go wrong. Oh, and it's good for the magazine.

 

I agree with Absent. There is no reason for MT to misrepresent against Ferrari. On the contrary, there are good reasons to go the other way. Perhaps the scale was just off. Perhaps the additional content in really adds that weight. Perhaps a combination or some bizarre mystery.

Who knows. All I know is when I press the throttle on the F12 it will make me laugh.

The videos sure proved that. Whether Euro or USA version or what have you. To me thats the most important factor.

 

There is something we don't know about this MT test. The pattern of oddities and discrepancies just does not make sense. You can' t get consistency with what we know and what other testers have come up with.

I am still struck by the fact that this F12 was a private car. While this is not unheard of, for this test MT should either have gotten a factory car or made sure that the private car was up to specs. Obviously they knew that crowds of enthusiasts would be interested in the result. Maybe they asked Ferrari and they wouldn't provide one, so "we'll show you..."

I'm just sayin'.

 

Im very curious as to why several post here feel that the car was out of spec since it was a customer car? What could cause this brand new f12 to be out of spec? I doubt it was in an accident. I much prefer magazines test customer cars and not have the issue of ringer cars

 

In my opinion the biggest disadvantage of customers' examples against factory ones is represented by wheels alignments. It can be optimized for traction during straight line accelerations or for track performance. Some degrees of camber in a way or another can result in a lot of seconds. Ferrari always brings its team of mechanics to tune their cars according to singular tests. What seems strange to me is the fact that this car underdelivered in both cases.

 

Just had a look at the Quattroroute test. They measured 3.0 seconds to 60 and 3,745 pounds curb and 3,966 pounds with driver and equipment. This matches up to a measured curb weight of a USA spec F12 (3,700~) from the other thread.

Oh, and a top speed of 214 (!!!) mph.

If you look at the video from Motor Trend the F12 has New Jersey plates on it. Ferrari North America is in Englewood Cliffs, NJ and all their press cars have New Jersey plates. Could be a customer car from New Jersey I guess... No way Ferrari would approve of these numbers.

 

These tests by their nature are subjective but I cant argue against the format of the video, can hear the cars, get lots of subjective opinions about what they are like to drive, as a viewer is is virtually put in the car. In my opinion after watching a few of these MT videos I prefer them above many others for the detail they include.

After the Ferrari the Vette definately sounds the best.

As to which is best, well overall for me the Porsche wouldnt feature and given a choice between the Porsche and Vette I can say my money would go with the Vette, sounds better, looks better.

At the end of the day these three cars arent really comparable at all.

 

The plates on the Motor Trend car are Ferrari NA plates, so that car was supplied by FNA.

From the video, it looks like they tested on a road, not a drag strip. Lack of traction from a poor surface could explain the relatively slow 0-60. And I wonder if the car was properly broken in prior to the test.

At least, nobody will be complaining about this Ferrari-supplied car being a ringer.

 

It was definetely a lack of adhesion, either from the tyres, the tarmac or both.

As for the braking in you mentioned, there is no such thing with Ferrari engines as they run the so called "italian tuning" on a dyno before they are even mounted on the car. The engines are in effect stressed out to their max on a dyno and the power and torque figures are recorded. If these figures do not at least match the factory claims, the engine is sent for a rebuild! All Ferrari engines have to either match or surpass the factory claims in order for them to be fitted to a car. After that, the car is tested at the Fiorano test track and the surrounding hills, thus it is fully broken in when it reaches the customer. Cheers.