The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Those were the days.

 

$26,500 in 1969 = $140,714 in 2006 dollars, adjusted for inflation.

I guess that would have been a good investment!! Too bad I was 14 at the time or I would have snapped it up. Course you would have spent a few dollars along the way on maintenance and running costs too.

Current value is $5MM+-, right? In 1969 dollars would have been about $900,000.

DM

 

I'd guess 7 Million at least.

 

And I bet some may still have lowballed him in the high teens too. LOL.

Man, those old ads always freak me out. Imagine what they were asking for the 427 Shelby below?

 

The ad for the 427 Shelby Cobra below the P4 ad reads,
"...minus shortblock, otherwise perfect. All legal competition options, but streetable in 45 minutes. New Indys. New top. $4650 or assume balance. Robert Washburn, Scottsdale, Arizona."
Somebody must have blowed their gol-durned engine and called it quits.

 

Remember when I Posted that Wayne Sparling had told me that different dispacement engines had been used at different tracks and Doug Nye said:
"Poppycock"?

Originally Posted by Ney
That is correct. 250P has a half circle opening, 330P has a full round opening. These engine displacement of these cars would often be changed for particular races, 3 lit, 3.3 or 4 lit. depending on the track. This was the beginning of tailoring the engine in the car to the track. Thererfore the same chassis # may be a 250, 275 or 330 P. The 330 P's 0818, 0820 and 0822 were not updated 250/275P's but were different cars. These cars were "down engined" to 275P for tracks like Nurburgring.

(David Castelhano NART mechanic)
You are indeed correct. In 1984 I rebuilt the engine in 0820. I recall that the frame had provisions for a long and a shorter engine block to be installed. (two different sets of rear motor mount brackets). #0820 is reprted to have been the Nurburgring winnner and had a 4 liter type 163 engine in it when I knew the car.


Jeff remember the photo of 0846 at the Targa Florio captioned you posted:
"275 P3"?

 

Which car is this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180072087690&rd=1,1

 

Hi

I believe P4 0858

67/apr/25 2nd 1000km Monza Mike Parkes/
Ludovico Scarfiotti #4

Best

 

Well done new guy Ascari66, maybe someone from Fchat?
It is a nice item!

 

My father (in suit on left) and the subject of this thread at Daytona for the 24 hours in 1967. From his archive of original slides.

[img=http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3151/daddaytona67tr9.th.jpg]

 

Jim, the factory got my address mixed up with your's....
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Great shot! Thanks for posting!

 

That's the prettiest picture I've seen in a long time.

 

Might be just me, or the angle of the photo, but the rear body section sitting off to the right looks a bit strange and rather short.

 

I think its the angle of the photo.

Best

 

http://www.barchetta.cc/All.Ferraris/events-stories/events/2007/palm-beach-supercar-weekend/palm-beach-supercar-weekend-gallery-07/index.html

 

Damn fine.
Your costing me a fortune in tissue Jim

 

Nice pictures. Jim have you ever thought about picking up an Audi endurance racer? I know you've expressed your respect for their abilities before, any reason why you haven't?


Peter

 

The only reason is that I'd really have no way to use it. I love driving them on the road and that's a pure race car.

 

The debate recently spilled onto other sections of FCHAT and I think it's important to archive it here.

I was recently pleased to have 0846 invited to run a parade lap before the 24 Hours of Le Mans next June and even though prior commitments make it very difficult for me to consider I haven't fully ruled that out and will advise if I will be doing that.

I have come to agree with my friends at Ferrari that "there is no present need to continue the debate" as the facts remain facts and the opinions remain opinions.

For the record here's John Barnes post to FCHAT and my response and the Placard that I display with 0846. The first Placard was made by the FCA in their sole discretion. The second by me.

Best Too All!!!


Why you find it necessary to post the exact same thing in multiple sections of FCHAT is beyond me but as you have I will post the same answer I gave you in the last place you posted this.


Dear John

Why you continue to show a reckless disregard for the truth remains beyond me.

As you were informed in writing on June 14th, 2005 in a letter that you refused to print, even though it corrects indisputable factual error in your magazine concerning among other things that the wheelbase of P3's and P4's are not the same but differ by 12mm, you were clearly informed that Ferrari has never stated in writing that the original chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 were destroyed.

Ferrari has very clearly, in writing, twice stated that they were "scrapped" "written off" They have also in writing stated that: "Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off". As Ferrari S.p.A. helped me to rebuild the car that you have referred to as ""the current car that carries the s/n 0846" by manufacturing P4 Uprights specifically for me to use to rebuild this car in 2002 I find Ferrari's latter statement a bit disingenuous but that is a different matter.

As you are also aware because of your refusal to publish my letter correcting factual error in your magazine I consider you unworthy of having my cars at Cavallino and therefore as you know I haven't submitted any of my cars for Cavallino since your refusal to publish my letter. Before then I did submit 0846 and you responded that unless Ferrari "Authenticated" 0846 which we both know that by Ferrari's authentication criteria is impossible as 0846 does not of course have it's original chassis stampings, you would not accept 0846 and as I told you I have no problem at all with that.

P 4/5 has NEVER been submitted to Cavallino as you are quite aware of, as you are also quite aware of the fact that none of my cars ever will appear at any event associated with you so why you would discuss if P 4/5 could appear at Cavallino with "Ferrari" is bizarre. After your track event was over so as not to encroach on your event in anyway I simply drove P 4/5 from the Ferrari of Long Island Transporter to Mar a Lago where I was staying. Why you felt it necessary to threaten me with arrest as Benie and others have told me that you did is also beyond me.

Now as for Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina. Luca di Montezemolo absolutely confirmed to Andrea Pininfarina that Ferrari was officially recognizing this car and allowing Ferrari badges to be placed on the car. Indeed the two of them jointly agreed on it's exact name. Jean Todt confirmed that this car was officially recognized by Ferrari to me at Pebble Beach and among other things commented he felt that the shields on her should be enameled not painted. I would appreciate it if you would name the Person at Ferrari who told you that Ferrari P 4/5 by Ferrari is not officially recognized by Ferrari as I would like to pass this information on to Luca and Andrea.

Sincerely

Jim

For the record a copy of my June 14th, 2005 letter to Cavallino follows:


June 14, 2005


Dear Cavallino:

Bill Wagenblatt's letter to Mauro Forghieri, and Mauro Forghieri's response, reprinted in Cavallino 147 is very interesting but as regards Bill's question # 4, Mauro's answer # 4 is incorrect by 12mm.

Question #4 Bill Wagenblatt:
The dimensions, such as wheelbase, are the same as the 330 P4 and is
2400 mm.

Answer # 4 Mauro Forghieri:
Yes. The database for the P4 was originally the same as the P3.

As the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.0846" clearly states, the P3 wheelbase of 0846 was 2412mm and was changed in December 1967 to 2400mm when 0846 was converted by Ferrari from a P3 to a P 3/4, the "bastard 330 P3/P4" Mauro referred to in his answer #6.

This is a small but very significant difference that is confirmed by physical measurement of my 412 P 0854 and LS's 330 P4 0856. (Links to the 0846 Papers which go into this in detail and contain the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n. 0846" and other reasons why I, and others now believe that the car I own contains substantial portions of the original chassis remains of 0846 are listed at the end of this letter).

I have no quarrel with your “* Publisher note,” except of course, when you refer to 0846 as "s/n 1046” in the latter part of the note.

“* Publisher note: Readers should know that there is presently a great deal of controversy over the current car that carries the s/n 0846. The car is presently under discussion between the owner, the Factory, and a large group of experts. It is not our intention here to enter this controversy. This


letter is simply presented as a clarification of what s/n 1046 (sic) was, and other "P" cars were at the time they were racing."

I do take issue with your use of the word "destroyed" in your second Publisher's note, especially if taken to mean that the chassis remains of 0846 no longer exist.

** “Publisher's note: “At the present time, the Factory considers the original car destroyed”.

In an email dated 6/10/2005 Joanne Marshall of Ferrari S.p.A. wrote:
"We confirm that, as far as our factory records are concerned, the chassis in question (0846) was totally written off in 1967 after the Le Mans incident."

"Written off" does not mean ceasing to exist.

There is not, nor has there been for years, any question that, under the definitions that Ferrari has chosen for their "authentication" process, 0846 as it exists today could not be "authenticated" by Ferrari. As an aside, under those same criteria the Le Mans winning Ford MK-IV J5 couldn't be either as it, unlike my Ford MK-IV J6, no longer has its original chassis plate.

The only question was, and is, if my beliefs as stated below are correct:

"After Le Mans 1967, Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846 was returned to the Ferrari
factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, including remains of the original chassis, and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace and John Hadduk Jr. to restore 0846 to original specifications."

(My recent acquisition of 412 P 0854 and its original coupe tail and doors
will enable me to restore 0846 to it's original spyder configuration and 0854
back to it original coupe configuration using the spyder tail that is now on
0854 which, by the way, is originally from 0858.)

In a letter dated October 5th, 2004, Umberto Masoni of Ferrari Maserati
Classiche described the research and documentation that is behind my beliefs:


"Subject: Ferrari 330 P3/4 Chassis 0846

Dear Mr. Glickenhaus
We wish to thank you for the extensive documentation that we have received
for competence, from Mr. Montezemolo's office.”

This "extensive documentation" “the 0846 Papers" is posted on a website
copyrighted by Ferrari S.p.A. CLick Owners/ Classiche/Forum.

For those without access to that website click:

http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf_


It's interesting that over many years while some continue to scream fake, no one including Ferrari S.p.A. has refuted the "extensive documentation" behind my belief as to what happened to the chassis remains of 0846 and how they wound up where I believe they did.

Sincerely,



James Glickenhaus
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That's clear as a bell, isn't it?

 

I am confused by all this. If this is truly 0846, then why not get a letter from Ferrari stating that the factory acknowledges this car to be 0846? A clear, no equivocation letter would end all the controversy. And the lack of such a letter would also answer the question.... wouldn't it?

Has such a request ever been made? Has any letter ever been generated? Has it ever been displayed to the public at large.

I have no "skin" in this game and am not at odds with 0846 being what it is-But just exactly what is that? If Ferrari SPA says, "yep, we understand this car as being 0846", then issue over. If not, then issue over. Seems simple enough to me.

 

Does this matter? Napolis is totally open about what the provenence of the car is (unlike some owners I've been involved with), the info is ALL in the public domain.
Why is all this still being discussed and in so many areas of the forum?
The car exists in its present form and we should all be grateful to the owner that he has not attempted to conceal or distort any of the car's history.

 

I didn't know he posted here - what's his username?