The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Jim,

I'm not questioning P3 vs P4. I'm trying to figure out how Mr. Piper got so far off the mark. If he ordered 2 chassis to the plans and one modified, everything lines up. If he ordered and recieved 3 P4 chassis and sent one off later to be modified, things get messy.

Regards,

Art S.

 

The problem is, your replies and other postings are rarely logical. My original question was posted a couple hours earlier. Is 12:30 the shift change at the nut house? Of course, you have avoided the original question and in doing so answered it. You have never seen the car in question, nor have you made any effort to, yet continue to post ad nauseam on the subject.

 

Jim.

I'm not fighting with YOU at all.

I applaud your effort to restore 0846 to its former beauty, you've done a fantastic job. Your work papers lay out your argument, and I've read and re-read them. I am no expert, and thus, can have no argument with you, even if I wanted to, but your argument seems logical to me.

I guess I take some offense at writing folks off as nut cases because they disagree with you about 0846. (You don't exhibit this behavior, but some 0846 supporters do.)

I hope Ferrari some day soon says, "YES, WE ARE SATISFIED THAT THIS IS 0846." That will put an end to this, at least for the logical folks in the world. Until then, I applaud your efforts to get that recognition, and hope that it does happen.

DM

 

The cool thing is he still thinks the chassis was built to P4 Plans. He still doesn't understand it. There are many P3 vrs P4 differences THAT YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO CHANGE TO MOUNT A P3 ENGINE INTO A P4 CHASSIS
SO IF PIPER WAS RIGHT, WHICH HE'S NOT, THOSE WOULD BE P4 ON MY CHASSIS WHICH THEY'RE NOT. THEY ARE AND WERE WHEN PIPER OWNED 0846 P3.

Best
(BREAKING NEWS JUST HEARD 250 LM CRASHED BADLY AT CAVALINNO. DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS TRUE)

 

Best and Thanks.

 

Dave:
I haven't written Horsey off as a nut case, although it appears that he is in there with 'em. I only asked if he and others who are both for and against the car being 0846 have inspected it. So far two people have come forward and said that they have looked at the car carefully, yet we are on the 54th page of this debate. I see many words, but little analysis.

 

So let's run the numbers. Everybody else here has THOUSANDS of postings to their credit. They are also PAID members of the board.

Now along comes Ney, who has neither, to tell us how the cow eats the cabbage.
(Ney probably thinks that this really is the ONLY 0846 thread. Hint for Ney: This debate goes all the way back to the OLD Ferrarichat board several years ago, and until you've read the WHOLE enchileda, YOU are the one who is uninformed.)

 

A legitimate question, but somewhat without merit. Since NOBODY can personally inspect the car as it appeared after the 1966 Targa Floria accident to determine exactly which frame tubes were bent or in what manner they were bent, and NOBODY can personally inspect the car after the 1967 LeMans fire to determine exactly what damage was incurred, and since NOBODY can personally attest to exactly what modifications might have occured to the frame during the intervening years after 1967 until Piper "allegedly" acquired his frame that is "allegedly" built on the remains of 0846, then this debate is pretty much a theoretical argument concerning what MIGHT have occured. And virtually ANYBODY is qualified to say what MIGHT have happened.

 

No, sorry Horsey, I have read the whole story, old Fchat as well, followed the restoration, made an effort to travel to look at the car, spoke with JG, read his booklet and have been following Ferrari competition cars and their serial numbers since the 1960's. I neither have nor want a cow, don't much like cabbage, but can tell keyboard bulls*** when I see it. I have never stated my opinion on the authenticity of this car, but I do know that almost NO competition Ferraris exist in accordance with your "Muscle car" mentality. They were crashed, fixed, modified, serial numbers swapped, discarded and resurrected from junkyards. This is not the only car that the Ferrari factory has "scrapped" only to have reappear in some form or another. While you may have read much, and paid for your subscription, it has bought you little knowledge about the marque. As to the post numbers, I don't post just for the sake of my post number.

 

Anyone can claim to be the Pope too, but really this is just a cult of one thinking the masses adore him.

 

So you are saying that you can attest to exactly what the frame damage looked like after the 1966 Targa Floria, the 1967 LeMans fire, and the interveening missing years? And that you can difinitively say that the car in question is indeed 0846? Seems to me that if you can NOT say so, then your opinion is no more applicable than anybody elses.

 

Ney,

Pease don't call Arlie (Horesfly) the Pope, he's bad enough as is without that tidbit going to his head .

Regards,

Art S.

 

No, I cannot attest to having spent the last 45 years sleeping next to this car. I am not the one stating my opinion over 4,250 posts, all saying the same thing, yet providing nothing in the way of any research. I do know that is extremely plausible that a chassis builder, in an effort to take a short cut, would go to the scrapyard and grab a "scrapped" car. Ferrari routinely scrapped cars, especially early F1 cars and reused bits and pieces to make new cars. That has been documented.

Let's see, I attacked on the post count, nope....Old FChat, darn, read that too.....uhh, threw in the cabbage comment to throw everyone off....hmmm, that didn't make much sense....stated that NO ONE knows, therefore my opinion counts....let's change the subject again. Now run along, learn something and open your mind to more than one possibility. My shift is over. Ta, ta.

 

Jim,

Is the following a correct statement to the best of your knowledge:

Mr. Piper ordered three chassis to be built from scratch for him. Two were to be built according to the P4 blueprints that he had and the third was to be a modified version of the P4 prints with the modifications designed to accomodate a P3 engine as well as a P4 engine.

What he recieved from the chassis builder was two chassis built according to the P4 prints and one P3 chassis modified to accept a P4 engine. Because the third chassis met his specifications of being able to accept both engines, he did not (and still does not) realize the difference.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. By the way, who built the Factory chassis and who did Mr. Piper order the new ones from?

PPS. What year did Mr. Piper recieve chassis '003'?

 

Art,
I'm not the Pope, but I still wear my Imperial Margarine Crown. It helps counter the Grey Poupon attitudes that are so prevelent in the Ferrari community. (margarine,...mustard,...all pretty much sandwich spreads according to my documentation.)
But it looks like it will take somebody with "Popely powers" to ever anty up some real documentation to back up the theory that the 0846 chassis walked out of the Ferrari factory in 1968, traveled to the Modena scrapyard, layed around for a while and avoided being melted into Italian catfood cans, then was picked up and hauled away by some mysterious chassis maker, then somehow made it's way to Piper who could never tell the difference, even though he had built and raced more of these cars than all of this board's members combined.

 

Art

Piper in writing and in person told me the same thing. The chassis he sold me was built to P4 Plans which were given to him by Enzo Ferrari. (Built in Modena in 1974)

He told several others that the chassis he sold me was built to P4 Plans.
He told Max that the chassis he sold me was from the same batch as 0900, and 0900a which were built to P4 plans. The chassis he sold me is not built to P4 plans. It is not built to P4 plans modified to accept a P3 engine. It is built to P3 plans and modified to accept a P4 engine. One of the many things that proves this is shown on Page 78. For the last time Piper was wrong. He was exactly opposite to being correct. This is fact.

Best

 

Jim,

I think we're writing past one another.

I am not questioning your claim that it is a modified P3. I also understand Mr. Piper believes it is a P4.

Therefore according to your statement in post 1065, when Mr. Piper originally recieved the three chassis, was '003' already modified to the form in which you purchased it.

Thanks,

Art S.

 

Tru dAt!

The photo Nathan posted shows that at that point the chassis was P3 and fitting a P3 engine without modification. As it is not fitted with a P4 engine at that time it is not fitted with the forward reaching triangle necessary to fit a P4 engine. As a P3 engine mounted to a P3 chassis fits in the rear at a 2412mm mounting point exactly as it does in 0854 and 0846 and that P3 mounting point is still quite visible on my chassis even though it is unused to fit a P4 motor which fits in the rear at 2400mm mounting point (See pages 71-76) I assume that the chassis is as David received it. Quite ready to drop a P3 motor right into. Cut the P3 water tube, add a wedge, use the P4 2400 mounting points which were added to P3/P4 0846, bolt in the forward reaching triangle and a P4 motor drops right in as well. Do remember to remove the P3 motor first.

Best

 

This has now officially gotten beyond absurd..

Signed

God

 

Help, my shrubbery is talking again...

 

And my bush is burning......

 

8-10 days of penicillin and that should clear right up...

 

LOL!

Actually, it reminded me of the old joke about curing a case of crabs....

Shave half, pour alchohol on the other half, light it and stab the little suckers with an ice pick as they run from the fire!

 

Divine 0846 intervention.
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BTW Jim,
Not to seem too toady chiming in at this late date, (I've been lurking all along) I think the car is fantastic, the work that your crew has done is great, I hope that all turns out for the best.

Best regards,
Bill