The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Paul
You mean that the 3L F1 engine that Napilos bought in 003 was actually a genuine P4 engine reduced to 3L?
Nathan

 

Yes. The block casting ribs are different between the F1 and P4 engines ... Jim's (as he has documented in the 'notes') is of P4 type not F1 type, but the engine was not 4 litres.

While it is possible that a F1 crank ended up in a P4 block, one then wonders what rods have been used?

One has to assume that Ferrari would NOT make a block with a higher than required deck height for their F1 engine and thus the P4 block should have a higher deck height (I believe the bore is the same but the 4 litre engine has a longer stroke). Saying this, this was NOT a good time for Ferrari in F1 and the 3L engine was really a piece of **** for the very high levels required for F1 ... too large and down on power.

Therefore the rods must have been made up to be longer (if the F1 rods are actually longer and the deck heights the same [F1 versus P4] ... then we can really see that Ferrari was struggling financially and not giving F1 a proper effort) when this crank was installed ... maybe they are Carellos and not genuine?

Anyway yes the block in Jim's #0846 is a genuine P4 block (the photos will be probably in the earlier part of this very thread?).
Pete

 

Nathan

FYI: (On another matter) http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78608

"The original brochure specifies the following wheels and attachments for all three versions of the 125 (Sport / Competizione / Gran Premio):

RUOTE: in lega leggera con mozzo Roudge (note the spelling!)

So, light alloy wheels with Rudge attachments (KO's).

The Borrani KO's ARE wrong, at least according to Ferrari's original specification.

Funny detail: if you run "mozzo" through the Babelfish translator, it gives "ship-boy" as result...

Another funny detail is that the Maranello office (the main seat was in Modena of course) had telephone number 94 at the time that this brochure was issued..."

 

Paul
Thanks - so if I understand you correctly, and adding what I've read elsewhere, this is the story;
N buys a 3litre P4 replica only to find that;
1) the 3-litre F1 engines is actually a P4 engine
2) the F1 gearbox is actually a P4 gearbox
3) the replica chassis is actually a genuine and unique Ferrari P3/4 chassis
4) And the poor chap that sold this replica, although for nearly 40 years has raced, built, re-built and repaired P4s didn't know that his replica had all these genuine P4 bits.
5) And this $500,000 replica is actually a real P4 that could be worth as much as $10,000,000
WOW - that's unbelievable.
You know - if I had half of Napolis luck, he'd still have twice as much as me.
Nathan

 

For matter of accuracy "mozzo" is a slang version of "mozzato" meaning "truncated". In fact a wheel spindle is a kind of "truncated" or semi-shaft on which you insert the wheel rim and close with the Rudge KO ( Knock-Off ?) or Hexagonal bolt

 

Luckily Jim´s has his claim very well documented.

 

This was in reference to this:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78608

So yet again, I'm NOT wrong.
Nathan

Nathan you remain wrong.

Here's exactly what you posted including Art's quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtS
Jim,
Should be Rudge not Borrani?
Art S.


Original wheels were CABO pressed steel with aluminium rims attached by Rudge Whitworth hubs. Wire wheels were always Borranis.
Nathan

ART WAS RESPONDING TO MY POST ABOUT THE KO's NOT THE WHEELS.

THE POINT IS THAT THE KO'S ON THE REPLICA 125s, ARE WRONG AND THE KO'S NOT THE WHEELS IS ALL I ASKED ABOUT IN MY QUESTION TO DR. STU:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
http://www.automodellando.it/images/...5s/page_01.htm


Now Dr. Stu. The close up of the KO. What's wrong? How do you know it's not original?

Best

THE KO's on the 125s and the 159s AS I POSTED, ART CORRECTLY GUESSED, AND AS BORRANI CONFIRMED WERE MADE BY RUDGE, STAMPED RUDGE AND NOT MADE BY BORRANI OR STAMPED BORRANI.

"They might not have had the Borrani stamp on the knock-off at that time, but were still Borrani.
So yet again, I'm NOT wrong."

Borrani says they did not make the KO's until 48. That before then they used Rudge KO's manufactured by Rudge and stamped Rudge. Still think the KO's were:

"still Borrani." ?



#18 10-23-2005, 02:07 PM
piloti
Karting
Not Subscribed Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: England
Full Name: Nathan Beehl
Posts: 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napolis
ART WAS RESPONDING TO MY POST ABOUT THE KO's NOT THE WHEELS.

Whatever!

Continuing right along.

#2 0846's 66 P3 Gearbox with 1966 Le Mans Stamps and 66 Typo P3 stampings modified to accept a P4 engine with repaired case damage consistant with known history of P3 0846's gearbox failure in 66. (Ferrari Dec. 67 as mule?)

 

Back to my post about the 125. I clearly stated it was a replica. The originals are gone.

I am NOT a Ferrari expert, and didn't notice the wheels are wrong. I was simply giving a link to the modeller who asked for interior and engine details, and the photos of the replica are the only ones I can find that shows interior details.

 

Hope all's well.

0858's spyder tail with bondo removed being fitted to 0846. Note 0854 in bg.
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I wish I could help do some of that work, even if it was for one day! I think this stuff is awesome.

 

Jim,

How much sheetmetal were you able to save on the tail you are mounting on '0846'?

Regards,

Art S.

PS. I just reread the pissing contest between you and Nathan about my guess about the Rudge stamp. I can feel the love from here .

 

Hey, it's a new year. Pissing contests were outlawed 12/31/05

 

We were able to save most of it. The ducktail was the most rotted section.

The edges are what rot under the massive bondo. We also found some old repairs. We're replacing the "Carb Hump" deck which of course was wrong with a proper FI deck.

Regards
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Art
I hope you noticed that it wasn't me who dragged that pissing contest into this thread!! As Stu says - they're not very 2006.
Nathan

 

Happy New Year Nathan. You are correct.

Best

 

Jim,

What is the function of the vertical pins? Do they connect the skin to the frame?

 

I was going to ask the same question, but I didn't want to appear any dumber than I already do...

Dale

 

Those are releasable rivets (Klico's) that temporarily hold the skin to the frame while your working.

 

They are temporary pop rivets
Usually spelled Cleco

see
http://www.browntool.com/category.asp?ParentCode=K15&HeaderURL=&FooterURL=&CategoryTitle=KWIKLOK+TEMPORARY+FASTENERS+(CLECOS)

 

Commonly used in aircraft production.

 

This is my first post here at Fchat, just curious as to wheather Napolis had 0846 at the 2005 Canadian international auto show? I was leaving one of the main showrooms, rounded the corner to the "hallway" display of vintage racers when I couldn't believe my eyes - the car I saw gave me goosebumps. I had been (and still am) building a 1/24 scale kit of 0856 for some time and am always searching for details (interior trim, etc.) I have since searched and searched to find out where that car I saw came from, as I thought I knew where most of them were, and it has led me here... That car was/is truly breathtaking. I have been reaing through this forum for two weeks now, catching up on "the big debate", reading Napolis' documentation and just generally enjoying and learning lots from all the posts. This is a long winded post I suppose, but the question remains, Was that your car at the Auto show, Napolis? I know there was lots of documentation at the show, but it was pretty much a year ago, and I don't recall the names now...

 

Yes, he did.

 

Thanks. I'm happy I was able to see it in real life.

 

Yes both 0846 and J6 were there. That was a interesting show.
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Intetresting people or interesting logistics? Or both?