David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

I guess. But then "to" gets into a very gray area. Before you know it you have an Opel GT being sold as a 246.

To me original condition is original condition where ever the proper techniques/materials are available.

The let's cut corners route and save some cash is not original condition. Nothing wrong with doing that way but don't call it original. Call it close enough.

 

Yes it is. If I am correct you need a special licence to compete in an Historic events. Does Jim have one? I have not been to an European Historic event but I have viewed a number of videos of these. Let me tell you many of these cars are driven at speeds equivalent to what they were in their heyday and by drivers of equivalent skill. Some of the best of these are in cockpit videos at Spa Historics. Not only does the viewer get an appreciation of this extraudinary track but the skill of the driver.And for those who want the answer to the big question. yes they do let up at the bottom of the hill going thru Aurouge. And if one watched the F1 race at Spa this year and previous years. the drives are flat out all the way thru Aurouge and at much higher speed. Just a thought. tongascrew

 

You realize what you are saying. You have basically insulted almost everyone who owns a P series Ferrari, most owners of other historic Ferraris, as well as most owners of other historic makes. I think you and others of your persuasion need to get together, climb the mountain and come down with a new set of rules. Then see how many converts you can make. tongascrew

 

Bring it back to as nearly as possible to its original condition. Originally it was a magnificent P4 created to live on the race track .To do this now modifications to the original are required so life on the race track can be realized. tongascrew

 

So you think an incorrect lugnut is worthy of a deduction in points but an improper body isn't?

It's their car and they can accept what they want. And I'd be happy to own all of those cars done incorrectly. They are still beauty's and great in my opinion.

It's one thing if you are restoring your car and this method is what you can afford. It is your car and be happy with the results you have chosen. But when you employ the "worlds leading expert" in order to make a 10 million dollar profit and it's a money making endeavor, not a restoration for personal use, I think that for 10 mil or so in profit you better deliver the best product currently available or re-think your asking price.

Afterall I can get similar work by Norwood for under 500K

But correct is correct, and if I'm paying 25 million by the "the worlds foremost expert" I'm expecting it to be done as close as is currently possible.

And doing the metalwork in the proper methods is the right way to do it.

The car will be beautiful. And the body will not be noticed by most.

But let's say that doesn't matter and it's good enough cause it can't be noticed unless in bare metal or by the more inclined feel.

Don't you think the wrong shaped widshield is pretty sloppy and noticeable for the best guy in the P4 game?

 

And doing the body correctly is as close as possible. Not the english wheel.

Do you not agree?

Or do you think the english wheel is closer then the original method in which it was constructed?

I did my research and the facts to me seem to be that the hammer method is bringing it back to as nearly as possible to it's original conditon.

But maybe I have my facts mixed up?

 

When it comes to a P4 Ferrari or similar historics this owner of yours should not get a seat at the table. Say what you will this is why I never could or would have a seat at this table. This is why I built a replica 250 California and spend countless hours. researching and discussing the real thing. I am honest about what I do and how I do it.It might be helpful for others to do the same and provide some evidence for their opinions. tongascrew

 

You imply Enzo gave his blessing for Piper to do work such as this to P cars. You present zero evidence.

You make statements like 'much of 0858 P4 will exist again some day' and yet provide zero evidence to validate such a claim.

You state that Talacrest 'is one of the most respected restoration shops' yet provide zero evidence to support this.

Its clear that some people really should take on board the very same advice they so willingly dish out.

 

These comments have taken this thread in a new and controversial direction. If I understand correctly, you're saying that it is inappropriate for the owner of any vintage race car not to enter the car in competitive events. The truth is precisely the opposite. If you want to see cars going quickly around a race track, or if you want to drive one, it is highly inappropriate to use irreplaceable vintage cars. There are many, many forms of racing available to anyone who wants to see a truly contested race, or to participate in one. Vintage race cars should never be used for this purpose. I also have never attended a European historic event, but I have attended many in the States, including the granddaddy Monterrey event. Any driver who behaves as you would prefer is black flagged, and rightly so.

Just one man's opinion.

 

Tonga gets sillier every day.

There is NO evidence that the Piperised 0858 will ever "race in anger" anywhere or anytime.

None.

 

One or two guys (are they?) here are just pathetic.

 

+1

George A.K.A "tongascrew", with respect, it seems your opinions, which you seem to want validated here, are not going to be.

My worthless .02 Lira opinion,......wait until it sells, if it ever does, and start over again.

Maybe many like to hear themselves talk (like myself), or so it seems.

Just one man's opinion. .02 Lira worth

Ciao and best.

 

Ok if you don't like the windshield and want to buy the car have it changed. Get the header tank changed. Change the description of. the engine to" based on the original 330 engine" which is what it is. What most want is to see the car in serious Historic competition not just a few display laps at a show or sitting on a trailer. If you can't make it to an Historic there are some great videos of P4s in recent Historic racing on the internet. Maybe this will change your mind. tongascrew

 

Are you blind. What do you think is going on at Talacrest. How about you providing evidence that proves what you claim. And where is your evidence that Talacrest is not a respected restoration shop. Without evidence these claims of yours only expose your ignorance. Why do I even bother. Good By. tongascrew

 

There you go again Tonga.

What you're posting is not true.

There is NO evidence that the Piperised 0858 will ever "race in anger" anywhere or anytime.

None.

 

Read the Talacrest promotion It's right there. tongascrew

 

Not True.

Talacrest does not own 0858. 0858 is for sale. No One knows whether or not it will sell and if it does who will buy it and what the new owner may or may not do with it.

There is NO evidence that the Piperised 0858 WILL ever "race in anger" anywhere or anytime.

None.

 

I never made the claim that Talacrest are a restoration shop nor one of the most respected...YOU did and therefore the burden is upon you to evidence this claim, especially when you are so vocal about demanding evidence from others claims.

I have posted the claims you have made and given ZERO evidence for. Perhaps you would be so kind before demanding it of others.

 

Like I said before Tonga. I respect you and I respect your passion. I also have learned a ton from you and when I started reading these boards 8-10 years ago I always thought you had a world of knowledge to contribute and still do. I hope to learn from your passion for years to come.

I think you're mis-guided on this one but that's fair because you think I'm mis-guided also. Fair is fair. For me it is about preserving history. It is about the decision Enzo Ferrari made back in the day as that is what fueled the direction of the company and for better or for worse I think this history should have at least one example that can be visualized 5, 20, 800 years from now by future Ferrari enthusiast's long after both you and I are too dead to continue this argument.

If Stroll's car, or Napolis's cars, or the other 412's didn't exist I could see the point of converting the 350 Can Am a little more clearly. If I'm going to be honest I'd probably rather have a P4 then a Can Am.

But they do exist. And I can see Norwood's race in total anger and still get a similar expierience. And most enthusiast's couldn't tell the difference if a 14 louver TDF was the price for getting it right.

For me it is a Noah's ark kind of thing. Leave one of every example would be the priority. After there is one then the decision to do this or that becomes less important to me.

From what I remember reading, Medlin brought the 350 Can Am out to many events and drove it hard back in the day before I guess he felt ostracized? or whatnot and stopped going.

My point is you keep talking about it like the P4 is the only choice to seeing 0858 race in anger.

Personally if you want to thrash around in a piece of history, Which I think is moronic, 80% sure, Anger.... you're a selfish idiot, but if you do then I would much rather see a Can Am out there with the other P4/412's then just P4's.

It is possible after all for the 350 Can Am to be restored and raced just as it is with the P4.

One of each. One of each. In anger. Or on the polo field. One of each.

 

And lets not criticise Jim G, love him or not, he certainly knows more than most and has the respect for Fchat to post here. He does own a P3/4 and a 412P and drives them (HARD) and thats much more direct experience than anyone else here so lets not forget that. When certain posters state that Jim has never raced these cars, what does that mean? I would say he has driven his cars more than most.
Finally its Eau Rouge, not Aurouge, pedantic maybe but 90% of this thread is pointlessly pedantic.
Keep it about the car

 

The Eau Rouge point may be the first bit of edification here in months.

 

True, true. Edification, what does that even mean LOL

 

I'd tell you but two bits of edification in a row might be too much for this thread.