The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Hello Bert

Yes, I do recognise it. For those who are interested - the original was by Paul Bracq.

Nathan

 

I have read all of the threads on this subject. I have also read Jim's documentation regarding 0846. The forensic evidence Jim compiled is compelling. The fact that people who were there and worked on the car say it is the chassis is enough for me. I believe Jim found the "diamond in the coal bin" with this car.

 

Paul, I too don't appreciate being called a liar.

 

Bill (or is it Erik)

aren't we getting a bit precious about this? Please, everyone (including P4 replica) let's just have some decent debate.

Nathan

PS - why Le Petomane? He was the French stage act that used to do musical farts and blow hot air - any relation?

 

Based on all the documentation I have seen, it is my opinion that the car IS 846. I believe that Piper had a junkyard of "P" parts, and like with Alfa guys who have hundreds, if not thousands of Giulietta parts (for example), didn't know, or couldn't care less what part actually came off which particular car. He simply put "stuff" together and sold it as a complete car.

I know of a particular guy in southern California who had tons of Alfa parts and a few incomplete cars, put a car together, and actually sold spider number 47 as a simple "giulietta spider", not knowing nor caring that it was actually the first guiletta spider veloce built, and in fact, one of just 24 lightweight giulietta spider lightweights ever made.

As a long term Alfa guy, I had been to the seller's place a number of times looking for stuff, and had actually bought a few things. Stupidly, I was only looking for parts I needed, and not interested enough to actually inspect all the chassis he had, or I would have wound up with #47.

We all make mistakes. It's just that some people don't want to live up to them. I think this is the case with Piper and 846.

 

P4Replica:

Just some questions:

-Have you read Jim´s booklet on "#0846"?

-Can you accept the content of the booklet as the truth, meaning the content doesn´t hold any lies?

-Would you agree that the ´evidence´ which leads Jim to believe that his car is built upon the remains of #0846 is till this day unchallenged?

-Would you agree that it is very unlikely that mr Piper would make a chassis that is unmistakingly a P3-chassis, converted into a P4-chassis, including signs of crashdamage, apparently sustained by accidents similar to those that history has recorded on #0846, then sell it as a Piper P4-replica, not mentioning all these remarkable characteristics?

Thank you in advance.

 

On a sidenote:

The recent issue of Prancing Horse has a story about Piper and his P4. Interesting read.

 

1) Yes - a few times.

2). No comment. I decline to reply, on the basis that this is a leading question, with legal implications.

3). No. Hardly ! What do you think this thread is about. LOL !

4). Agree in part.

 

P4replica>

Of course your answer to the third question isn´t surprising and it raises new questions. First and foremost, I do not know a thing about engineering, but I have read the booklet. Don´t you find it at least intriguing that the chassis on Jim´s car shows unmistakable signs of it being a P3-chassis at one point in it´s life, being converted to P4 specifications in a later part of that same life, there for disqualifying it as a "Piper-replica". Those were all built as P4´s, right? How can you account for the signs of crashdamage which just happen to be in line with the type of damages that #0846 has sustained in it´s racing life?

Surely, this should be evidence that at least part of the chassis is actually the chassis from #0846. That is all that Jim´s is claiming. The matter of that making the current car the ressurection of #0846 or merely a Piper-replica with some bits from #0846 on it, is another matter which Ferrari Spa has decided by acknowledging that Jim´s carries the #0846 number.

And then Piper´s silence is remarkable. The fact that he isn´t into internet and internetforums surely doesn´t mean Piper doesn´t have an opinion on the subject and if he does, there are many more ways in stating that opinion than just getting on the internet. So, if Piper has an opinion, why not state it? If he doesn´t have an opinion, why not?

You´ve talked to him numerous times. Didn´t this matter ever came up? Didn´t Piper ever gave a reasonable explanation as to why this chassis has all these curious similarities to the #0846 chassis? What did he say? You mention we wouldn´t believe mr Piper, but why wouldn´t we believe a reasonable explanation?

If there is an explanation as to why the chassis on Jim´s car shows all the #0846-traces, yet actually is a ´brand new´ chassis built by mr Piper, than mr Piper has it. So why not step out with it?

 

Then what is it build upon, in your opinion? one of the later build 900 series chassis? Then how do you explain all the strange details? Or what do you think? Even if you answered before, please repeat, just for clarity, thanks.

 

David has been aware of my findings for years. Doug Nye also discussed them with him about a year ago. Doug told me that in the past Piper had always given him a straight answer. In this case Doug told me Piper did not give him a satisfactory explanation and was cut off by Liz Piper.
The only answer David ever gave me when I told him that I was begining to suspect my chassis was the remains of 0846 was: "The remains of 0846 were used to construct P5."
The time to explain was before I published my findings not after. That is one reason I waited to publish, to give David and others a chance to present a counter case without the benifit of my research.

 

Right, guys, LAY OFF Paul...U know he never answers questions...he's above that sort of thing. He just makes insinuations, and is backed by his merry band of humourless Piperettes.
I'm starting a "Buy a REAL car for Paul and his buddies fund" so he'll have something to do. No flames here, just an offer of charity for a deeply jealous sycophantic bunch of "enthusiasts"

Maybe David P will donate some Green paint...it matches all your eyes

Where did the post I quoted go? Ghost of Piper's foot kick it off the board???

Horrors, I disrespected a "legend"

 

....and the pissing contest continues....

 

Gentlemen,
A year or so ago, we were discussing the gearbox in Jim's car, and I wasn't able to publish the pictures I had...........now I can.

from the bottom up:-
P3 at the official launch, from 'Ferrari:the GT and Comp'n Berlinettas' by Dean Batchelor.

1966 F1 car at the official launch, end of 1965, photo from 'Autocar' mag.

drawing by Vic Berris, ditto.

1966 F1 car at Syracuse GP with ancilleries rearranged, ditto.

So what Jim and I have pointed out, about the different backplate and bolts and thicker ribs on his 'box tallies with pic 1, not the others. Piper/Nye are wrong.

Paul M
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I deleted it, Lee. Got my mucking furds wuddled up. Realised I had, as soon as the pics uploaded, so rather than give some smartass the opportunity to correct my (pretty obvious brane-fade) error, while I was still editing it, I copied it to Word, and deleted the post from the thread.
You must have had a window of about 10 seconds. So - Well caught, Sir !
I was going to re-post it, in it's corrected form, but I've just had a PM from Wayne Ausbrooks, threating to close the thread down, unless I can come up with something new. I thought I had. Apparently not. So whatever ....

 

Good, macca. Very, very good. Add to that all those folks who were with 0846 since before Piper recognize their own handiwork.

Someday these whiney naysayers may realize they don't have a leg to stand on and admit they're stumped.

 

Let's not forget what really matters and Drive them...
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Damn..What a sight!!!..Great picture!!

 

Hi Jim.
What did Sal do about the hot soak issue? Just leave her running?? Or did you wrap lines/cool lines?
PM is fine, but I've avoided Vintage for awhile...no Ausbrooks Asylum for me!

 

We tried not to shut down but when we had too there was a large crowd available to push start which seemed to work. It's funny Gianni kept wanting Sal to lean it out which was fine for the track but not for the street.
The night stage was the wildest drive I've ever been on.

Best 2 U!!!!!

 

Great.

Another thread where Paul tries to convince us that he's right and Jim's wrong.

Then Jim (rightfully) gets pissed.

Then Paul (in retaliation) gets equally pissed.

Maybe it's time the mods shut these friggin' "War of the Words" threads down before they get started.

Wayne - maybe should have hung the closed sign on this and left Paul's post alone???

I didn't read every post, as it sounds like a replay of at least three other threads every time.

I respect the hell out of Jim for what he's done with 0846 and his many other beautiful cars, and his incredible generosity with them.

I admire Paul's desire to be right, and his efforts to lay out his premise, but enough already.

DM.

 

While the action dies down , i just want to say this is quite possibly the coolest car pic i've ever seen....
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Agreed, one hell of a shot!

Reminds me of the Monterey poster from last (?) year.

 

Is that the Highway shot, Andreas?

 

No, I'm thinking of that P4 seen from behind thundering through an Italian village.