The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It's the original artwork for the FCA Monterey 2004 event poster, Michael. Painted by Thierry Thompson. CollectorStudio.com have them for sale on eBay quite frequently. Price is $195, IIRC
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6537114145
Yup

 

Being of monocoque construction, I understand that they don't have a tradional "frame", but would have thought the "tub" would have an indicator of some sort, somewhere. (Even 1957 T-Birds had frame stampings.) I assumed that the flip up tail and hood portions would constitute the "body". (perhaps part of the center section covering as well). When I built my model car back in 1965, I did not notice any serial number stampings.

 

Only the chassis plate is stamped on MK-IV's and GT 40's.

 

Jim

I am a comparative new boy to this forum and grew up under the tutorage of a top guy on the UK forum - Tonyh.

For what it is worth, which I understand is not alot, I have followed this 'debate' from afar for some considerable time and my humble opinion is as follows:-

Ultimate respect for anyone who 'treats' his cars the way you do - drives them

Ultimate respect for someone of your stature that can share the ownership of these cars the way you do

Bottom line who would I rather believe - or rather would I believe that you would fabricate a story like this - hell no - what is the point ?

Thank you for all that you do to make us all realise that these are just cars - and the people that own them are just human.

FWIW Paul S is that after all any different from David Pipers philosophy ?

 

oops ......... sorry ( sheepish grin .......) i didnt know, i thought it was digital .

 

I no longer want to play with this thread ... but Nathan you are very wrong.

A CAR is described by it's chassis. That is why when your register your car they want the chassis number. Nowadays because of theft, etc. they want your engine number too ... but that is a modern thing.

Thus you can change every thing but the chassis and the car is still an MG and registerable as such ... it has simply been rebodied and had an engine change. No longer 100% original but still the same CAR!

If you do not comprehend this then I cannot see how you can add anything to this discussion. Please spare us all and research the miles of discussion in this site regarding #0846 ... as we have been there and discussed that. This thread should remain clearly focused on the new evidence in the auction cataloue ... otherwise we might all just shoot ourselves and give up .

For example have a look at this post regarding a 'P1': http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134974923&postcount=11

Even the legal people have agreed that the chassis is the CAR ... thus if Jim can prove that the chassis in his car is what held #0846 together in 1967 then he owns #0846. It is that simple. If somebody finds the original body, engine, gearbox, seats, windscreen for #0846 ... they do NOT own #0846, but parts that once belonged in #0846.

Respectively
Pete
ps: Now if somebody found the original chassis tag ... er, things would get interesting

 

Hardly. Watch Blazing Saddles very closely and it will make sense.

 

You could both be right :-

Blazing Saddles (1974) - Greatest Films (www.filmsite.org and www.greatestfilms.org)

In the office of the governor is near-sighted and sex-obsessed Governor William J. LePetomane (director Mel Brooks himself), with a large GOV in white letters on his back. [The governor is named after the stage name of a French performer (Joseph Pujol) known as the 'fart expert.']

 

I chose it for the governor.

 

But bring a $hitload 'o dimes
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Pete
on the basis that you are taking then Jim's car is not even a Ferrari -
1) the previous owner (as per auction description) says that the chassis was not even made by Ferrari
2) it doesn't have a chassis plate!!
If you do not comprehend this then I cannot see how you can add anything to this discussion
Nathan

 

Sorry everyone - looks like I hijacked this thread with my little Le Petomane comment - apologies
Nathan

 

That's all right, Nathan - a few others were blowing 'hot air' ....

 

If the autioned car is the same car as Jim currently owns, then the auction-description is wrong or incomplete. Please explain the fact that the chassis in Jim´s car is a P3-chassis modified to P4-specification and shows signs of crash-damage, typical of the sort of damage #0846 would´ve sustained during its racing life, while no mention of this is made either in the auction-brochure or while selling the car to Jim, if you feel the aution-description is fully accurate (IF the described car is actually the car Jim no owns and calls #0846).

It doesn´t need to have a chassis plate in order to determine the legal identity of the car. Same as a dead body doesn´t need it´s personal data to determine the identity of the victim. It helps a great deal, but if there are other traces which lead to determining the identity, than that´s ok too. Now, there is only one P3 modified into a P4, and that´s #0846. The fact that it shows the same crash-damage is a nice bonus. Jim has that chassis. Of this chassis is not #0846, then Piper or whoever has built a P3chassis, only to modify it into a P4-chassis, showing signs of crash-damage. Not only would he have done this on purpose (for whatever goal), but he wouldn´t have told anyone, not a single soul, about it. Untill this very day, Piper has remained silent about it, yet surely he will have an opinion.

The evidence seems pretty conclusive to me. Whether or not this means the car in it´s current form can be labeled as #0846 remains another debate. Obviously there is a thin line between replica, re-creation and the real thing. Somewhere along those line, there´s Jim´s car. Where exactly probably depends partly on personal opinion, and in the end it would only have significant meaning for buyer and seller, and since I´m not buying and Jim is not selling, well....

 

Nathan

The previous owner (in the auction description) said car has a F1 gearbox.
He is wrong. It is, as Macca proved long ago, the gearbox stampings clearly show, (Both 593 and ACO Le Mans Stamps), and the technical data sheet confirm as being, correct for P3 0846, P3 not F1.

David was wrong.

His description of the chassis frame, in the auction catalogue as being P4 is also wrong. His description of the chassis being built to P4 blueprints in the COA and Bill of Sale is wrong.

His understanding of what the block that is in my car is was wrong as well. It is P4 not F1 as deciphering of the Factory stamping codes by S.p.A's records, Pedretti's ability to change the stroke back to the proper 4 liters, without the sandwich plates Nye mentioned, and the curved casting P4 rib vs the straight F1 casting rib prove.

His belief that the heads on my engine were reworked F1 heads is also wrong as Macca proved long ago, and most importantly the ACO 1967 Le Mans Stamping clearly demonstrate.

The only question that matters at this point is wether or not my chassis is the remains of 0846. There is now new further strong reason to believe that it is. This new evidence will be public record in the proper place at the proper time. The fat lady is clearing her throat.

Best

 

Explanation - FACTS
1) QUOTE - Cavallino 147 - "At the present time, the Factory considers the original car destroyed." Believe me, no one would publish that statement without good reason, especially in America.
2) Piper said it was a replica chassis. If Piper had a genuine Ferrari built chassis wouldn't he have said so? It would have pushed up the price, and sold for more money.
3) Do you really think that damage/repairs so obvious to Jim would not have been obvious to David Piper & Doug Nye?
4) Unless the damage was done after 1987, whilst Piper et al were racing it. I expect it had a few incidents. Can you prove WHEN the damage was done?

'then Piper or whoever' - Agreed.

Agreed. But I've already been told not to go down that route again. So let's not.
Nathan

 

Jim
This post crossed with mine. I'll wait and see what transpires.
Nathan

 

Let´s not forget Cavallino isn´t stating anything about Jim´s car in this quote. They merely state the ´factory-status´ of #0846 as it is known to them. I fully accept and understand that #0846 was once registered as being destroyed as far as the factory was concerned. Then the chassis was taken from some junkyard and used to build a Piper-replica. The factory, now aware of this, acknowledges the ressurection of #0846 in granting Jim´s claims on #0846 on their website. As far as I understand the factory now lists #0846 as being in the possession of one mr J. Glickenhaus.

Obviously Piper didn´t have a clue as to what he was selling. I suppose Piper didn´t built his cars with his own hands, and is it really that far fetched that Piper ordered some workman to built the replica using the original P4-blueprints and that those workman happily used an old chassis, found in some junkyard. Piper, presented with the car, didn´t have any reason to doubt the chassis, therefor never checked and never knew what he was actually selling. He merely thought he was selling another replica.

Obvious when you totally strip the car as Jim´s and his people have done. Invisible when you inspect a fully intact car just to describe it for an auction-catalogue.

No I cannot, but it is fact that all the signs of crash-damage are in line with the crashes #0846 has had. And even if it wasn´t, there is still no explanation as to how Jim´s chassis can be a P3 modified to a P4 and NOT be (from the remains) of #0846.

 

Supposition. Who took it? When? Give us facts!!

Supposition again. On what basis do you make that statement. Was he senile or something?

YES - of course it's far-fetched.

You obviously haven't seen a P4 stripped down and being race prepared. And - FACT - Piper worked on his own cars!

I thought we'd agreed - 'then Piper or whoever'.
Nathan

 

And surprise, surprise: the "old chassis found in some junkyard" turns out to be the chassis of a famous car..... Of course this is possible (in those days yesterday's race car was little more than junk) and stranger things have happened - but to me this is the only point why I am not 100% convinced by all Jim's evidence (which to me is VERY convincing!). How many people have access to the junkyard where Ferrari discarded their old racers? I want to believe Jim's story but I would like all pieces to fit....

 

You hit the nail right on the head. Conclusive evidence. I'm sure interested what the fat lady has to say (see also my post #65)

Ciao, Peter

 

I don´t know, but obviously the remains of #0846 ended up somewhere and it is fact that #0846 is one of a kind in its configuratoin (P3/P4) and that the chassis in Jim´s car is of exactly that configuration. We also know for a fact that Piper builds his cars as per P4-blueprints, and whoever made this chassis, it wasn´t made by P4-blueprints. Mr Piper, care to comment on that? If it looks like #0846 and walks like #0846, it probably is #0846, no?

Why would it be so impossible that Piper thought he had a P4-chassis, only that the truth be different? We know exactly what Piper has sold to Jim. Jim told us and he showed us pictures, ergo: Piper sold Jim a car which has a P3-chassis modified to a P4-chassis. If it were a genuine Piper-replica, the chassis would´ve been a P4-chassis all along. It isn´t and that is fact.

Also fact, Piper remains silent, allthough he has all to opportunity to prove to anyone interested that Jim is wrong and that he does not own (the remains of) #0846, yet a Piper-replica. Apperantly one could say that mr Piper is bigger than all of us and simply above this type of discussion, but when you think about it, there is some substance to this matter. There is a big difference between a car that can claim succesfully to be (from the remains of) #0846 and a Piper-replica, even when you are mr David Piper. Senile? No, not at all.

Not merely as farfetched as the supposition that Piper builds a P3-chassis, modifies it into a P4-chassis, adding some signs of crashdamage to it, for no apparant reason whatsoever, without telling a single soul.

So tell us then, how could it have been possible that Piper obviously didn´t know what he had? It is fact that Jim bought this car from David Piper, it is fact that Piper delivered the car to Jim and it is fact that Piper delivered a car which has a P3-chassis, modified to P4-configuration. Obviously, mr Piper overlooked something when he delivered these specific goods to Jim, delivering them as being a Piper-replica (P4-specifications!) I don´t know how mr Piper overlooked this, or why he didn´t tell Jim if he hadn´t overlooked this, but the fact is that mr Piper did not deliver a car with a P4-chassis and the fact is mr Piper isn´t saying a word to anyone about it.

If you are saying that mr Piper knew exactly what he was selling and delivering, than I am curious what went wrong in labeling the goods (Piper P4-replica in stead of Piper P3, modified to P4-replica) and why mr Piper in that case wrongfully led Jim on to believe he was buying and recieving a Piper P4-replica.

Yes, and that´s what makes it so totally probable that Jim owns a car built upon the remains of #0846.

 

Perhaps I missed something, but why is this discussion concentrating on mr PIPER doing this? It seems to be a fact accepted by all that years ago mr. Piper sold a car believed by him to be a replica to mr Glickenhaus and that now the later has pretty strong evidence that this not a replica after all but the (remains of) #0846.

Now lets play the devil's advocate: IF (please note that I am stressing the word "if"!!! I am not suggesting anything here, the following is just an assumption and NOT my personal opinion) you want to believe that someone fiddled with a replica chassis to make it look like the real #0846 why on earth must this person be mr Piper by default??? In the intermediate years other people had the opportunity to do this as well.

Again, this is not to suggest anything or to accuse anybody, but it is a point in this discussion that I do not understand at this moment.