The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Nathan
Instead of parsing Cavallino's Publishers notes why don't you read all of them and quote them in their entirety?

Instead of proffering the same tired arguments why don't you or anyone refute my post 144, something that no one has ever publically done including S.p.A.? S.p.A.'s actions regarding the car I believe to contain the substantial chassis remains of 0846 are public record and speak for themselves.

If you read all of the publisher's notes and the LAST letter I received from Ferrari S.p.A (which I've previously posted) you will realize that this is very much an on going discussion. It is also infront of the FIVA and will soon be with the FIA as well.

"We wish to thank you for the extensive documentation that we have received, for competence, from Mr. Montezemolo's office.

We will do our best to analyse it shortly on all details and to let you know our evaluations and information from the factory."

David knew? If so why was he wrong about the gearbox, block, heads, and most importantly chassis?
Answer the question. Stop evading it.
Best

 

[QUOTE



'unless they were looking to keep the controversy bubbling' - Or, unless they were hoping to end it? They don't seem to have given it much space in Cavallino so far.
[/QUOTE]

I would love to see an article in Cavallino about Jim's car. I don't think that would happen unless there was a general agreement that the chassis is that of 0846. Cavallino has done articles on other cars that were in the middle of controversy (A certain TR, IIRC). What it would take for there to be an agreement regarding the authenticity of the chassis, is unknown.

 

My point exactly. The only alternative for mr Piper not knowing what he sold, is mr Piper exactly knowing what he sold. That would mean mr Piper did knew the car he sold had a P3chassis modified into P4 (amongst other technical specifications), allthough he sold it as a Piper-replica (P4 specifications all along). So my guess is that mr Piper didn´t know and that it is, without evidence of some sort, too far fetched to believe otherwise.

Sure, but since mr Piper is the seller and probably the builder, he would be the one to talk to first if it turned out that Jim didn´t got delivered what he had bought. Of course, Jim came out a winner, so he isn´t complaining.

 

Nathan
Once again FYI:

Napolis
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Honorary Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,336

Nathan
FYI First Publisher Note in Cavillino # 147.

*Publisher note: Readers should know that there is presently a great deal of controversy over the current car that carries the s/n 0846. This car is presently under discussion between the owner, the Factory, and a large group of experts. It is not our intention here to enter this controversy. This letter is simply presented as a clarification of what sn 1046 (sic) was, and other "P" cars were at the time they were racing.
__________________
Ec KrEw mAn uP an KnO ZeN.

 

Marnix,


I am afraid you did not get my point.... therefore let me clarify it.


We all agree that years ago mr Piper sold a chassis believed to be a replica to mr Glickenhaus. Now (years later) mr Glickenhaus has plenty of evidence to believe that this car is not a replica but the real thing.

A highly unbelievable conspiracy theory says that it is a possibility that mr Piper took a replica chassis, fiddled with it to make it look like the genuine #0846, then sold it to mr Glickenhaus as a replica and then waited for the later to discover the "truth" . Of course this is highly unlikely because (1) it assumes foul play by mr Piper and (2) the benefit for him is zero.

Not discussed so far is another equally far-fetched conspiracy that SOMEONE ELSE modified the replica chassis bought by mr Glickenhaus into something that remarkably looks like the genuine remains of #0846.

Of course this second theory is not plausible either, but my point is that I found it missing in the discussion. Why not discuss all options and therories how unlikely and weird they may seem?

 

This reminds me in some ways of the situation with the Alfa Canguro. It was sitting in Bertone's junkyard, and when someone saw it, they took the offer...I believe it was all of $50! Like Bertone, what Piper had was not much more than a yard full of junk. Some of what was there got put together and sold for whatever could be gotten to simply support the racing effort. I still believe Piper either didn't know or didn't care what he had (or both). He was simply looking to get whatever monies he could out of what was there.

No one knows with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY what Jim's car is, as for a rather long period of time no one cared. For me, it's the documentation that this can be nothing but the only P3 turned into a P4 that makes the case. There is no reasonable or logical explanation other than that. It would be insane to make a P3 chassis, than convert it to a P3/4 with damage in the same area as resulted from a documented crash. Of course it IS possible that such insanity did take place, but why would someone do this unless it was a deliberate attempt to fool people? The ONLY options for me are that the car IS 846, or Piper is both insane and a crook. I choose the first option.

 

RE the attitude of Cavalinno and apparently many of the "Ferrari Elite" out there relative to Jims claims and evidence that his car is built on the chassis remains of 0846....


I wonder if they would have the same scepticism and attitude if it was John Shirley or Bruce McCaw or Bert Steiger making the claims and presenting the evidence?

Since Piper is a respected long term "insider" the prospect that he made this large of a mistake in identifying what he actually had is clearly something the insiders refuse to accept. Evidence be damned.... they will not accept it period. I could expect that to continue unless Ferrari SPA themselves set the record straight with some sort of official ruling.

The "good old boys" network doesnt only work here in the south.



Terry

 

You mean you haven't heard, Terry ?

 

I agree - but in your first option mr Piper is not insane but careless to the extreme....

 

Thank you for clarifying.

This theory would puzzle me even more. If I understand correctly, Jim bought the car directly from mr Piper. So if anyone, not mr Piper or the people working on behalf of mr Piper, would´ve taken a Piper-chassis to ´fiddle´ with it, he would´ve need to take a P4-chassis and make it into a P3-chassis which is modified back into a P4-chassis. Or, he would´ve started from scratch. In that case he first needed to built a P3-chassis, but Piper doesn´t have those blueprints, and who does?

I understand the need to examine all possible options, but we have to set boarders somewhere along the way.

Besides, to my understanding, this discussion is about Jim owning a car which is built upon the remains of #0846, or not. It is not about anyone commiting foul play in selling this car to Jim. No one ever suggested the car was more than it actually was. As it turns out, it is to opposite. The car was sold short. So the suggestion of any sort of foul play (and I´m not saying that this is what you suggest) is not only irrelevant for this particular discussion, it is also highly unlikely since no one seems to benefit from it.

 

Jim
I never said I had the answers - just that there were unanswered questions, and still are!
Nathan

 

Someone bought a replica and now claims to have an original.

 

Even then the required P4-chassis would have to be rebuilt to a P3-chassis, modified to a P4-chassis. I don´t know if that´s even technically possible.

It would also mean someone is lying to reach financial benefit (and I´ve always understood that Jim will never sell his P4), but I think this whole ordeal can be explained with someone somewhere along the way suffering from a genuine mis-conception about the truth. No harm done.

 

No, I have not.

Please enlighten me.



Terry

 

Yes Paul Please do. Perhaps S.p.A sent you something in writing that is different from the last letter they sent me?

 

I bought what I believed to be a replica chassis built to P4 chassis blueprints, an original engine, original gearbox, and various other original parts exactly as described by David in the COA and Bill of Sale.
After much investigation and as Ferrari S.p.A put it: "extensive documentation" I have come to believe that my car's chassis is the substantial remains of 0846.
Discussions and investigation remain on going.

 

I fully agree that this indeed makes my conspiracy theory mentioned earlier highly unlikely - and personally I do not believe for 1 split second that Jim set this all up to get money out of it. But the fact remains that he is the one to benefit most if his chassis is genuine. And these benefits are not just money: the car becomes eligible for all important concourses in the world...

 

My earlier posting was in no way meant to accuse anybody of anything. But if you start thinking in terms of weird and far-fetched conspiracies, I am afraid that you would be highy suspect in the eyes of the Miss Marples and Hercule Poirots of this world.... Note that I am neither of these 2!

 

You conspiracy guys appall me. You can do better!

How about Piper made his normal P4 replica and when the car was in transit, a switch was made and a fake P3/4 car substituted and delivered to Mr. G.? Like a Banacek episode...

How about Piper never made the car at all; he bought a "replica" off eBay and drop shipped it claiming it was his, only to find out it was real later on?

Sheesh...

Ken

 

You mean a replica based on a Toyota or other Japanese chassis? LOL!!!!

 

and that poor Lamarosa is now eating his heart out.....

 

Terry
who is ignoring the evidence? You are! Ferrari 'have set the record straight with some sort of official ruling' as you put it, but you don't want to accept it.
This is the evidence AT THIS TIME - (as I've stated before)
1) QUOTE - Cavallino 147 - "At the present time, the Factory considers the original car destroyed."
2) Piper said it was a replica chassis.
3) The rest - not really destroyed by the factory, found in a scrap yard, foistered on poor unsuspecting David Piper who couldn't tell a second hand chassis from a new one when it was delivered - is pure supposition.
Take your 'evidence' to court and see where it gets you. No where.
I repeat - This is the evidence AT THIS TIME!! According to Jim Ferrari are again considering this question. If they change their mind then I change mine.
If they don't, and they still consider that 0846 was destroyed, will you change your mind?
Nathan

 

Nathan
Years ago I stated quite clearly that by Ferrari's authentication criteria my chassis definitionally could never be certified. This is very old news. BTW using Ferrari's authentication criteria the Le Mans winning MK-IV J 5 couldn't be "certified" either. Why you continue to ignore the publishers note in it's entirety or the last letter I received from S.p.A is quite beyond me. Why would discussion between me and Ferrari continue as the Publisher's note said it is if there was nothing to discuss? Perhaps because they like me simply want to attempt to figure out what the truth is.

As Dr. Stu pointed out long ago it does not matter what Ferrari thinks. It does not matter what I think. All that matters is what is true.
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Well, let´s see then.

This is merely stating Cavallino what they believe is the ´official´ factory standing on the status of #0846. How it coincides with the fact that the factory has acknowledged Jim as the owner of #0846 on the owners website, is a mystery to me.

Sure he says that, since that is what he believes. He always believed he sold a replica-chassis, because apperantly he had no reason to assume otherwise. Extensive research has shown that it is not a replica chassis, or not a replica-chassis that Piper or whoever would´ve built and sold (than it would be a P4-chassis and it simply isn´t).

How you can call Piper´s remark evidence is beyond me. I´d rather go with the pictures in Jim´s booklet.

Define ´destroyed´. Why wouldn´t the factory label a dismantled car, the chassis thrown out on a junkyard as being ´destroyed´? How the chassis came in Piper´s possesion is unclear, the only thing that is clear is that Piper delivered a car to Jim which has a P3-chassis modified into a P4-chassis, while Piper was under the assumption he delivered just another Piper-replica. Obviously he didn´t. Seems like fact to me.

Nothing in your post can considered to be evidence whatsoever.

Depends. IF Ferrari simply states #0846 is destroyed, I will remain having doubts. If Ferrari can come up with a satisfying answer as to how it is possible that the chassis in Jim´s car is a P3-chassis, modified to a P4-chassis, without being the remains of #0846, than I´ll happily believe Jim does not own a car built upon the remains of #0846. But let´s be honest here, there is no such explanation. If there was, Piper would´ve stepped forward, Doug Nye would´ve stepped forward, Ferrari Spa would´ve stepped forward. Have they? No.