The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I've seen some e-mails from an Italian auto manufacturer that were VERY interesting.

 

Jim,

Why change the gearbox?

Or are you aiming to make the car correct for a particular period in the past?
Pete

 

Arlie

A lawyer from Ferrari S.p.A. sent an email to Wayne stating some things that I had publicly disclosed years ago and other things that were demonstrably untrue which I pointed out to them. Ferrari S.p.A. was invited to post anything they wished to about 0846 on FCHAT.

After reading my email, to date they have declined.

Exactly what Ferrari S.p.A. has said and done concerning my car is fully disclosed in the 0846 papers and has been for years. (It is clearly restated in Pages 108-112)

None of this is new.

Pete
The reason is that 0846's 593 P3 gearbox, except for being used as mule for 0846's conversion from a P3 to a P4 in December 66, was never used in race conditions with 0846's P4 motor. A newspaper photo of 0846 in the garage before Daytona that Macca found clearly shows the fitment of a 603 gearbox. (As Macca further pointed out whether or not 0846's 593 P3 gearbox was used in testing before the first 603 box was cast/produced is probably lost in the fog of time.) In addition the 593 P3 gearbox was a weak point and caused 0846 to DNF at Le Mans in 66 and that is why the stronger 603 gearbox was developed. The 603 albeit with modification was used in the 512S, 512M, and even the 712 Can Am.

Best

 

Arlie.

Let all of us see this "interesting" information, or shut your pie hole.

Want to take a shot at the authenticity of Jim's car? Do it elsewhere.

This is a thread about Jim's cool new gerbox, and what he's going to do with it, not about your accusations, without back up, about the bona fides of Jim's car.

I'll butt out now. Back to the gearhead info.

DM

 

If you want to see this "interesting" information, why not have LWayne or Jim simply post the e-mail for all to see? They both had it before I did and it never showed up on F-chat. I've had it in my files for 2 months, and I didn't say anything about it. So if I was really trying to stir up the 0846 pot, I would have done it weeks ago.
As for pie, I prefer cake. But you can't have your cake and eat it too! If a valuable car depends on the numbers, and the numbers aren't there, then how can you say that a gearbox is going into "0846" if the car STILL does not currently exist?

 

Thanks. I guess I've never seen a gearbox that still had the coating on it. Every racing Ferrari gearbox I've ever seen was a much brighter silver-grey.

Now I have to decide if I should reproduce the color of the coating on some of my miniatures

 

Well I guess Ferrari really fixed that weakness!!! ... way to go, instead of stuffing around they did a Ford and made it bloody strong

Pete

 

Not quite...
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Jim
Seeing as you threw the first stone on this thread, and the guy isn't able to defend himself - your statement is crap! - Paul S made 673 posts under his real identity.
To Quote you yourself - http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135082314&postcount=56
"Opinion=Fact? ROTFLMAO"
In this case your opinion is not any where near the facts. Again, your quote;
"As Macca said there are some people who wouldn't know the truth if it fell on their heads from a great height."
Nathan

PS - just stick to comments about your gearbox - that's what this thread is about!

 

1. It was Horsefly who threw the first stones on this thread, backing up P4R's viewpoint.

2. P4R got banned more than once from FChat, temporarily at first, but tried to continue his "I'm always right" campaign by proxy.

3. He has sent me PMs on another forum, from which he hasn't been banned (yet) but never with any of these so-called 'interesting' facts included - but I would welcome these with an open mind.

4. P4R has persistently refused to even acknowledge the evidence, both pictorial and documentary, about gearboxes presented in FChat by myself and others - hence my comment, which I stand by, that some people wouldn't know the truth if it landed on them from a great height.

5. 'Numbers', especially 'matching numbers' (ROTFL) are irrelevant to old racing cars, as many people have pointed out at length over many months - what matters are continuous history of the parts and forensic evidence.

'Nuff said.

Congratulations on finding that 'box, Jim - are all the bits there? Has it suffered any corrosion? Is the face mounting to the bellhousing exactly the same as on the 593? I knew the outward appearance is the same as the 512S 'box, but are all or any of the internals the same?

Paul M

 

Nathan

In the nature of full disclosure perhaps you should mention the fact that you asked me to finance the publishing of one of your books and I declined.

Replica Paul and other's have stated that my interest in all of this is purely financial, something I dispute. Other's have accused you of jealousy. In light of that accusation I believe the above disclosure is important.

Unlike you I have presented over 120 pages of fact. Why don't you list one fact that disproves anything in those pages that you have uncovered that is not opinion.

Replica Paul is wrong about my 593 gear box being F1. Macca's research, and the 66 ACO stamps on it, prove that beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt.

Replica Paul used multiple usernames/personalities to attack me and agree with himself. That is also fact. Your statement that my statement is "crap" is as untrue as your statement that I parsed Doug Nye's statement was. Your total inability to post one fact that disproves anything in the 0846 papers speaks for itself.

Replica Paul's refusal to admit that he is wrong about the 593 gearbox also speaks for itself. His thinking that David's auction description proves anything except that David didn't know exactly what the chassis he sold me was remains bizarre.

Your posting that Peter S. has publicly stated that my car is a fake is equally silly. Peter is entitled to his opinion but until he, or anyone for that matter, something that for years no one has been able to do, is able to credibly refute the points I raised in my booklet showing why I and many others now believe that my car contains 80+ percent of the chassis remains of 0846 his statement remains opinion. (Now as I have personal first hand eye witness knowledge of the originality of a certain Ferrari that was recently on the lawn at Pebble perhaps we should start a thread on that.) I for one would enjoy hearing what Peter has to say about that one.

Your statement that I "threw the first stone" is also untrue. Arlie, once again, started with the same tired, old, bulls hit by talking about information that I disclosed years ago and is gone over once again in the pages I cited.

 

Hi

We have most of the bits and yesterday found the limited slip. We feel confident we'll be able to source the rest. When we restore 0854 to a coupe and 0846 to a spyder we'll also service 0854's 603 and be able to fully answer that question. As an aside pf will be putting 0846 into a wind tunnel in September. While I have MK-IV wind tunnel data I don't think anyone has P4 data. It should be very interesting.

Best

 

GREAT find Napolis!

 

Jim.

Is 0846 state side? Will the wind tunnel testing occur somewhere in a secret hidden factory on the East Coast?

Can I wheedle an invitation? I bet the gang here would love to see some pictures of that event.

Enjoy the day.

Dave

 

No she's still in her homeland.

Best
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I wish Paul, P4Replicar, was still posting. IT stinks in a way that he has been banned and we no longer have his input.

That does not mean I agree with his opinions. I do not. I have studied Jims documentation at length starting a year ago and its pretty convincing.

But, I did really enjoy seeing Paul get owned in the debate repeatedly!

Rather than ban him, let him continue. All of his arguements have been shot down, none of his "proof" ever materialized and he was shown to engage in deliberatly misleading behavior. I call all that OWNED. But.... that said, his posts were entertaining and his debate DID further the general knowledge about 0846.

Also, he did post lots of good info and intelligent discourse on stuff not directly related to disputing 0846.

I feel the ban is passed out too easily. Bring him back, let him continue and let everyone enjoy his being discredited over and over. Like I said, its entertaining.



Terry

 

Terry
FYI the link earlier in the thread contains some additional information you may find interesting.

Best

 

COOL!

 

Already devoured it yesterday when you posted the link!



Terry

 

In a pm to me Nathan states:

"I really believe that I didn't approach you. It's not my style. I put a message on FChat and fortunately had a positive response. Also, the book is not about 512s but about BBs, so maybe your memory is not 100% on this matter, nor would I expect it to be.
I never wanted our disagreements to descend into anything personal - that's no use to anyone, and I've tried to avoid doing that -"

Even though I believe that he did I also believe his pm and never want any of our disagreements to descend into anything personal either.

 

Apology accepted
Nathan

 

Jim,
You want facts - Here are, not one but 3 FACTS – and these are FACTS, not opinion!!;
1. Ferrari have stated that the chassis of 0846 does not exist. I know your response: I quote; "Ferrari's exact words, which I disclosed YEARS AGO, were "written off". "Written off" does not mean "Ceasing to exist"." (end quote) But that's YOUR opinion! Ferrari have asked you not to claim that your car is 0846, therefore it is obvious that in their opinion "written off" means "Ceasing to exist". (and I know that you are waiting/hoping that they will change their view on this, but that is their statement at this time.)
2. I have also discussed this with Mauro Forghieri. I asked him what happened to the crashed Amon car. He states “the basic chassis was destroyed and the components used, where possible.” As he was at the factory when the wreck was returned he would know better than anyone what happened to it.
3. David Piper states that he sold you a replica chassis not an original chassis of any sort.
But apparently their memories are unreliable – (because they don’t agree with you?) - but your sources (Nino & Wayne) are 100% reliable?

We’ve had your theory - Now you give us facts; -
1. How did this chassis get out of the factory?
2. Who took it out of the factory?
3. When did they do this?
4. Have you got anyone at Ferrari who disputes that this chassis was scrapped?
5. Which scrap-yard did it go to?
6. Who took it out of the scrap-yard?
7. How did it get to Pipers?
8. How come Piper didn’t realize that he’d been tucked up with an old scrap chassis instead of the new one that he’d paid for?

Let’s have facts not supposition!

I don’t know about gearboxes – hence I’ve never made a comment. But whichever gearbox you put in it doesn’t substantially alter the arguments against your car.

See 1,2,3 above

Start it then – should be interesting - we might agree

I don’t think Arlie threw anything at PS! Arlie threw a stone at you, and you threw one back at PS. So my statement that you "threw the first stone" (at PS) is totally factually correct!!
Nathan

PS - Again - just stick to comments about your gearbox - that's what this thread is supposed to be about!

 

"Again - just stick to comments about your gearbox - that's what this thread is supposed to be about!"

Why you, instead of following your own exclaimed advise keep asking the same tired questions that have been clearly answered in the 0846 papers for many years is quite beyond me.

Why you continue to state things as fact:" Ferrari have asked you not to claim that your car is 0846" that I've proven to be untrue in the "Recent Development" section of the 0846 papers is equally bizarre.

As for Mauro, as I've shown on pages 108-109 even he is capable of making a 12mm mistake.

 

So even if 100% of your documentation is indeed the gospel and scientific truth, the best possible case scenario is this:

It is POSSIBLE that 80 percent of the chassis of your car is all that remains of anything that actually drove around the LeMans race track in 1967 and the rest is just a build up from assorted original Ferrari parts?

Does that about sum it all up?

 

If he answers in the affirmative, will you and pieholti shut the **** up?