The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Arlie

Asked and answered many times but for the record see page 109.

"Likely"that... (chassis); and as the ACO stamps prove the heads (67), 593 gear box (66), and other parts delineated in the 0846 papers.

While installing the 603 box will make the car more period correct there will be a bit less of original 0846 P3 content. (593 gearbox).

 

How about this for another perspective....

Whether its a bug chunk of the chassis, or just an engine block, or just a transmission case, or just some suspension bits based on Jims research and documentation I think it is safe to say that SOME bits of the original car 0846 are on Jims P4 known as 0846.

I know there are other significant Ferraris that are generally accepted as such that also have a similar amount of "original" content.

There is a 250TR out there that was rebuilt from remains that were in a barn that burned to the ground, then were bulldozed into a hole, buried and left for 25 years or so. These twisted, burned, rusted and unrecongnizable remains were eventually unearthed and "rebuilt". That 250TR is gorgeous today.

Is that 250TR an original car? Sort of. Its a 250TR, but one that has one heck of a "story". Would it be valued the same as one of the other 250TRs with significant race history and a well known continuous history? Of course not. It is a car with BIG story and a sad history.

Its the same with Jim's P4. 0846? Yep, as close as anyone is ever going to get. A known history, no stories example. Nope. But Jim has never claimed otherwise.

I really do not get why some folks have their panties in such a wad over this.



Terry

 

Because you keep carrying it on, just as you have done with this post. I didn't spot anything about gearboxes in it. By the way - "many years" = how many years?

Because you haven't PROVEN them to be untrue. Just because you state that it's untrue doesn't make it untrue - no matter how many times (years) you say it.
Prove that Ferrari's statement is untrue. Tell us;
1. How did this chassis get out of the factory?
2. Who took it out of the factory?
3. When did they do this?
4. Have you got anyone at Ferrari who disputes that this chassis was scrapped?
5. Which scrap-yard did it go to?
6. Who took it out of the scrap-yard?
7. How did it get to Piper's?
8. How come Piper didn’t realize that he’d been tucked up with an old scrap chassis instead of the new one that he’d paid for?

Your arguments would carry more weight if you stopped trying to discredit who disagrees with you.

Nathan

 

IMO: a recreation with original parts

 

i think the gear box is cool.


love to see the wind tunnel results for BOTH cars. be nice to see what those sexy lines do in the wind. GT40 especially.

best .

 

Innocent until proven guilty is a phrase that springs to mind

Please post some evidence that the remains aren’t 0846, any half wit Barrister/Lawyer can argue against a point, however only the good ones can argue a point successfully.

Nathan in your opinion, why did the people who have commented in Jim’s evidence, state that some of the welds and repairs on Jims chassis were identical to the ones made to 0846 in period?

 

Andrew
If the statements of Ferrari, Forghieri and Piper aren't enough, then there's no point in saying anything else.

Andrew, I can't comment on why other people say what they say. But if what the above say is correct then any repairs, modifications etc. can not have been made to 0846.
I'm not saying that it's not a fantastic car, I'm just not convinced that it's 0846.
Regards
Nathan

 

It IS INDEED a fantastic car. So why not just come out of the closet and refer to it as a fantastic REPLICA and go on with life? Why the obsession with attempting to prove that it is P4 serial number 0846 that Ferrari says ceased to exist in 1967?

 

Nathan

My point was that Ferrari, Forghieri and Piper have only made public statements about 0846 before Jim disclosed his findings ( I doubt Piper will make any statement as either way it could reflect badly upon him (he could be viewed as jealous he missed out or ignorant of his own toys if it is proved to be 0846))
In fact the only partially public statement from Ferrari has been to identify Jims car as 0846 within his "My Garage" section of owners.ferrari.com, as they haven’t as yet added my track whore 045461 into my own garage section (no problem with any of the other Ferraris in there), then maybe they know something we don't (about either 0846 or 45461)

Regards

Andrew

 

Tell me this, if somebody comes out with incredible claims regarding the 1967 Pontiac GTO that I use to own, and I refuse to make comments about the car, does that add validity to THEIR claims? Or does it just mean that I couldn't care less? Or that if I can't say anything nice then I won't say anything at all?

Absence of commentary regarding incredible claims of authenticity does not necessarily add validity to those questionable claims.

 

ya know, i ran all the numbers through the owners site for the Dino, and they have not put it in "my garage" as of yet. the 308 gts 23785, and the 308 gtb 20433 are in there. the dino is not.....09562




maybe my number plate is fake and the car is not real !!!
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Since it absolutely makes my skin crawl to watch yet another one of these debates continue on, I'll add some visual aids to vent.

Pic one is a new paint scheme idea for 0846.

Pic two is what I think the crackpots here visualize the Ferrari shop to be (circa 1967) when they hear the word "Destroy".




C.
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Arlie, thanks for proving my point (I've met a few half wit lawyer/barristes and there arguments usualy vanish into thin air, when confronted with eye witness accounts and forensic evidence), unless you post a large amount of information from which we can draw our own conclusions (as Jim has) I cannot in all consciousness make any comments about your old Pontiac. Why don't you post the relevant information on Pontiacchat.com..................

 

At least your Dino's in one piece 45461's major components are several miles apart at the moment!

 

Word.

 

Not to perpetuate the debate ad naseum, but every time JG or anybody else refers to the car AS 0846, aren't they "claiming otherwise"? In other words, instead of it being what it is, a car with questionable history of unverifiable lineage, it is constantly being referred to AS 0846, the P4 car that raced at LeMans in 1967.

Isn't this revisionist history? In other words, perpetuating an unverified fact until it BECOMES the accepted fact? Isn't that exactly what I warned about on the old board several years ago????

Sounds like it is happening just like I said it would.

 

Arlie
As Sharon said: "Anyone who has 7 bucks knows I don't wear underwear."

 

And PT Barnum said that there's a sucker born every minute.

 

since we're resurrecting things we proclaimed many moons ago, I'll recycle this one from yours truly circa 15 months ago:

"Unlike others in the vintage Ferrari business, Jim has been open, open, open about his process and his theories. He has shared his theories with not only this site, but with Ferrari and the world's experts in other fora. I have a vested interest in keeping the poseurs and the frauds out of the arena since my father has perhaps the world's most unmolested S.II 500 Mondial. So I take a very dim view of people who say that their car is something that, in fact, it is not. Would you be assuaged if Jim started calling his car "(mostly) 0846"? how about "(more of) 0846 (than anyone else has)"?? I believe that if someone was able to present credible evidence to Jim that Ferrari SpA buried/crushed 0846 after its roasting, and that it did not make its way into Piper's hands, then Jim would be the first to retract his beliefs about his car."

I stand by these statements - they are even more true today than they were last May because Mr. G has since made public 128 pages of his best evidence to support his theory. I have been researching certain Ferraris for 25 years and, to my recollection, Mr. G's openness in sharing his process and theorizing is unprecedented. Name a single other "stories" Ferrari that has had this much public scrutiny. Lord, how I wish some other "stories" Ferraris restored around a tach needle had had this much scrutiny.

I think your fear, Arlie, that Jim's car will just be accepted lock, stock and barrel as "0846" in its entirety is completely unfounded for the simple fact that Mr. G HIMSELF has provided step-by-step proof in the way of progress photos of what parts of this car were manufactured in the last 3 years. I'll take this any day over a long-lost 250TR or GTO that mysteriously shows up at a concours w/ the owner's lips locked tight re: where it has been for the last 30 years.

 

But what happens in 15 or 20 or 30 years when the details of the road to 2035 have grown murky with the passage of time? Look what has happened in the past 38 years alone: With hundreds of professional photographers running around the LeMans track in 1967, the photographic evidence of what happened to the car back then has been reduced to a few grainy black and white photographs. Where will all this evidence be in 30 years? At that time, will JG's restoration document still be around? How many photos of the car exist from when Piper owned it? Very few I would say.

JG has said all along that this is not about money. But let's not be naieve. It WILL EVENTUALLY be ALL about money. Even if JG never sells his car, in 20 or 30 or 50 years when JG's relatives sell off the car, the car's value will depend upon its heritage, which, by that time, will no doubt have faded into it actually BEING the car that raced at LeMans WAY back in 1967. And of course the value will have appreciated substancially by then. The bidders at the auction will not care at all about the absence of a frame number stamping. The numbers "0846" in the auction catalog along with the words "LeMans racer" will be the big draw for the bidders. If the Spirit of St.Louis were to be sold at auction next month, nobody would care if the main stringers of the fuselage were replacements from 1970 or if the engine crankcase was replaced in 1935 during a cross country flight. The bidding would be fast and furious because of it's heritage. And if the publicity march toward "0846dom" continues for JG's car, I'm sure that it will also bring the big bucks 30 years from now regardless if 60 or 70 percent of the car's weight are non-original parts that never saw a LeMans race track in 1967.

 

Well then please don't bid on it 50 years from now. As for everybody else....it's their money.

 

Arlie,

EVERYONE knows what Jim has. Some may not agree with calling it 0846, but that is their opinion its not because they do not know the story unless they just choose to stick their heads in the sand.

As I said, there are a good number of significant vintage racing Ferraris that have questionable history and "stories". Here is more detail on the 250TR I mentioned:

http://www.ferrariclub.com.ar/2doNivel/Actividades/clon_wars/clon_wars.htm

Both TR's that claim that VIN # have good stories. Its possible that both actually do have pieces from the original car. Both are represented buy the owners as 250TR's, but.... EVERYONE who know anything about these cars knows that both of these cars have a big story and questions in their history. If either car were to sell, it would bring far less money than a no stories car. Nobody would ever purchase such a car without doing their research.

Heck, its possible someone else in the future will locate other key parts of the original 0846, build a car around them and call it 0846 as well. Certainly not the first time such a thing has happened.

The 1956 LeMans winning D-Type was wrecked many times in its racing history. At one point, it received a new chassis from the factory. The original, badly bent chassis was tossed out back where it sat. Decades later, it was found and a D-type rebuilt using it. Suddenly, there were 2 perfect condition D-Types both laying a legitimate claim to that chassis number! In that case it came to a nice end. One guy ended up buying both, swapping all original parts to just one of them and creating a car with a clean provenance. Note: when those cars sold at auction prior to being rebuilt as one, neither car brought real "no stories" D-Type money! NOBODY is going to pony up 7 figures for something they have not researched AT ALL.

Jims car is the same. Even 100 years from now when Jim and his currently living relatives are all long gone, 0846 will STILL be a car with a big story and a questionable history (unless of course some 100% sure proof surfaces...). But, it will still be a car that most likely contains at least some important pieces that were on it when its in period history was made. So, it is now called 0846 and it will be then but it will always be a car with a big story and questioned provenance.

If Jims car ever did come to auction, I think it would bring more than a pure replica but it would bring nowhere near what a fully know history P4 would. Big deal. That is true for all such "stories" cars. Everyone knows it, everyone accepts it as reality and, again, I just do not see the big deal?

0846 today is one of hte most amazing cars I have ever seen in person. I for one am very happy to have enjoyed all its revealed history over the past couple of years.


Terry

 

I understand what you're saying Arlie, but you're making trying to make a point by assuming another one.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that (adjusted for inflation) a P4 Ferrari has pretty much peaked compared to 30-50 years from now. The guys who saw these cars originally race are now the current owners (and aside from FarmerDave, myself and a few others) my generation really doesn't give a hoot about old race cars. How many guys in their 20's hang out in this forum?

Instead of 0846 being auctioned off for (pinky finger to corner of the mouth) ONE BILLION DOLLARS in 2037, I think that there is a greater likelyhood of finding a lovingly restored TR under a tarp in a garage with an owner who has no idea what it is or what it represents other than some relative left it to him. The price is always set at what someone will pay for it.

Do you really think that Jim would base his family's future financial stability on a car? I think he's a *bit* better educated in the money arena than that.

C.

 

LMAO ..... i know !




since everyone else is talking about .... "other stuff", i was wondering if the "new" gearbox in question will have to be carefully broken in, or if the gears and parts were match machined as a set years ago. seems they would have been spares, ready to race, once the regular set ups and gear lashes are set.

however, due to the age and rarity of said parts, is there any special way to "break in" the gears and the gearbox for 0846?


also, is it prudent to check all of said pieces for cracks and imperfections prior to assembly? we test various aircraft components all the time due to time in service and nitrogen embrittlement / fatigue "scrap life".

best .

 

Thanks.
Here's one for you. Don't recgonize it? Come on you remember that pretty red car racing down the Mulsanne at the Le Mans Classic last summer...
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