The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

That doesn't cut ice with me.........

Wanna name names?????????

 

But apparently it does with those persons whose opinions matter

No, Allan, I don't, but (whether you choose to believe it or not) that quote came from a respected Ferrari expert.
I have several other quotes that I can publish too, if I am pressed ....

 

Paul

Just yesterday, face to face in NY one member of the afore mentioned group, who BTW was directly involved in, and was at Le Mans in 67 with, the P4's, and who has inspected the evidence, unequivocally stated that it is possible that I am correct. That is fact.

That Ferrari's records, show that after the Le Mans fire of 1967 0846 was taken back to Ferrari where it was deconstructed, investigated, and scrapped has been public knowledge and so stated by me for years. It is clearly disclosed in my document.

As I also clearly stated in my document I have come to believe that those records are by no means conclusive proof that the scrapped remains of 0846 no longer exist. I and many others, after examination of "extensive documentation", now believe that there is credible evidence that substantial amounts of the remains of 0846 did leave the factory including over 80% of the original chassis and that the chassis remains and other parts of 0846 that I have specifically delineated in my document are in my car today.

No more. No less.

 

Jim,

That's the best summing-up of something that needed summing-up that I've seen in a long while!



Paul M

 

I haven't had the opportunity to read Jim's paper on the subject--I'm a Rossa member but wasn't able to open it for some reason--but I've read enough to believe him. He's a man of class and stature who has taken the high road in all matters and I respect him for that.

We have to remember that old Ferrari race cars weren't treated like Rembrandts back in the day. The idea that a large portion of the chassis could 'go missing' is entirely plausible to me. A friend of mine was involved in one such incident. Back in the mid-Sixties Dave Mac Donald died at Indy after a tire blew out. We lived in Dearborn near Kar Kraft, a Ford supplier that was owned by the father of a kid we went to school with. Kar Kraft was a Ford racing skunk works and we were known to hang around because there were always neat cars to see. One day my buddy Tony saw an old racing tire in a trash can. He asked if he could have it and the Kar Kraft employee he asked gave it to him. Tony proudly took it home as a trophy.

A few weeks later we went back to Kar Kraft and the guy who gave the tire away ran up to my friend. He was frantic and demanded that he return the tire. As it turned out the tire he gave my friend was the same one that blew causing Dave Mac Donald's accident. His spouse was suing the tire company--I believe it was Firestone--and they needed the tire back for analysis and evidence.

My point is that back in the day old race car parts were 'passed over the fence' on a regular basis. If the tire that caused MacDonald's accident could be given away it's possible that large chunks of 0846 could have been used for other purposes and ended up in Jim's car. We have to judge this stuff by the standards of the day, not by what happens now that the cars demand a king's ransom.

 

End of discussion? Interesting that this topic still burns bright ......

 

Imagine how boring Lawrence Stroll's life must be...........LOL!

I'll bet he says to himself........

"Why doesn't anyone pay all this attention to MY car?"..

 

Probably because it's been around a little longer .... ROFL !

 

I do (my pic)
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

So do a LOT of other people .... (photo copyright www.Fast-Autos.net)
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Wow... Some people are incredibly rude and have absolutely no class, whatsoever... Another thread goes sour because some people can't engage in mature conversation... How sad...

 

Here's my pic of 0856 at Pebble. Fantastic car! I'd love to see Jim's sometime - I somehow missed it that weekend! I'm such a moron...

ps. - anyone know who the folks are standing behind the car? I'm assuming one of them is Mr Stroll?

-steve
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Boring? I think he´s just happy.
Of course people pay attention to his car...because there´s no question if it´s authentic or not. IT IS!!!!
I beleieve Mr. Stroll is happy...if his car does not get too much attension.
P 4 Staff.

 

Mr Glickenhaus and his mates has built a beautiful P4. Don´t get me wrong.
But there will allways be a doubt...if it is 0846...until otherwise proven.
Even the most evident "fans" must long for an answer.
P 4 Staff.

 

Actually the bit I bolded is a little elitist. People are not born Ferrari historians ... the interest has to start first and then the disease is fueled. Thus one of the great things about Jim's #0846 is that it has fueled interest in old Ferraris more than just about any car in the last few years. Nothing wrong with that at all IMO.

If we could just get the elitist snobby cr@p out of some Ferrari enthusiasts the world would be a better place. So far in my contact with Ferrari owners the ones with the real passion and really interesting cars are the ones with their feet on the ground. Sort of makes sense ... those that can just make ownership naturally get a little ahead of themselves and feel that they have achieved more or are somehow better than the next person (forgetting that it is just a car ... some people are not into cars and pour their money into boats/houses, etc. It is a personal accomplishment not a significant world achievement and that is great, but it does not mean the nose should be jacked any higher), while the ones that can afford to buy the factory, er, just see them as cool cars ... which is all they are, they are not the solution to world hunger or cancer (or though I bet they would help) or anything.

Pete
ps: Not knocking you Erik (or Korr), I do understand the point of that sentence ... but there is a positive side to all this attention .

Infact Jim you should make an advertising claim to Ferrari Spa, who knows how many people you have drawn in to the marque due to your restoration?, and the way you were/are prepared to share it.

 

I´m not really sure of what you´re saying here.
But...I saw Jay Leno...and the motorcycle...with all the celebrities signing it.
WOW...that should be something....James Glickenhaus...letting celebreties sign his Ferrari...for a good thing.
COM´on...let´s do it for the world.
Talk to Letterman...he is a race-car lover.
He he...I´m not shy...am I.
P 4 Staff.

 

I agree with this. As a relatively young and budding Ferrari enthusiast, I am drawn to the 0846 debate. Not only because Mr. Glickenhaus' car is an amazing machine, but also for it's fascinating, *ongoing* history.

Thanks for continuing to share your experiences with us, Mr. G.

 

Jim

That's heavy. Why do you think they would they do that - not allow your car at Cavallino?

Nathan

(PS - sorry for the delayed response - been away for the day)

 

Jim - could you elaborate? your car was not allowed to be placed in a class for concours judging? or was not allowed for any spot on the field, including display?

 

For stuck up snobs to not allow the car at CC is just amazing.

Why not allow the car in, let it be judged and put out some brochures or such that explain the entire story including the questions and controversy? Its an amazing and interesting saga.

I can understand the powers that be having questions and doubts. I can understand them wanting those attending CC to know that the car does have questions and there is a story and I would expect the "people" attending would be very interested in the story and in being allowed the opportunity to learn about it and make their own opinions.

But I cannot understand any reasonable reason to simply excluse the vehicle from participating at all. That is just the actions of arrogant jerks.

I'll choose to attend events like the FFQC where FUN is the objective over events like CC where snobbery and arrogance are so celebrated.


Terry

 

Staff
The amount of money, and frankly much more importantly the time and effort that I and my family have put into doing the right thing: Helping those less fortunate than us or putting ourselves in harms way to defeat those who would do the wrong thing (How many Wall Street'rs do you know who made Nixon's enemies list or received death threats from the KKK?) is public record
and vastly exceeds the amount that could be raised by a charity appearance of my P 3/4.

Nathan & Brain

Heavy? Watching Jimi play The Star Spangled Banner on Yaskers Farm was Heavy.

In light of the fact that Ed Gilbertson invited my car to appear at the FCA concours last August in a non judged capacity I have no idea.

As an aside DS in a pm to me said that this was in no way his doing and that the first he heard about it was when he was cc' by John Barnes.

More importantly why anyone would not want to allow my car to be displayed anywhere with full disclosure so that people can see what I have posited and decide for themselves is also quite beyond me.

Nathan I don't think I'm wrong in characterizing your views on this matter, after reading my document, that at least it deserves further investigation. Where else and how else can this occur?

For those in the area 0846 and J6 will be at the Canadian International Auto Show in February. Be assured that the people who invited them to be there have received full disclosure as well.

The same is true of the people who invited 0846 and 002C to participate in The Historic Targa Florio.

No more. No less...

 

First of all, let me say that I don't agree with those that wanted to keep 0846 out of the show. I for one was disappointed it wasn't there, however, from the point of view of those in positions of power, they may not have wanted to see it in the show because that might have given legitimacy to the car and they didn't want to take that resposibility, just my opinion. Again, I don't agree with those that kept it out of the show. But until some one gives 0846 the official stamp of authenticity, it probably won't be allowed in a show for judging. I believe there was a thread regarding the "Breadvan" and it not being considered for judging, even though it has a documented history. I remember the first Cavallino Classic in 1992. When I got there, I was looking at a 250 GT California Spyder when a couple of judges asked that it be removed because it wasn't authentic (it also had a for sale sign on the windshield which apparently wasn't allowed). Until Jim's car is recognized officially as 0846 it may never be allowed into a show. This is speculation on my part as I do not know the specifics behind the story! I had the opportunity to read the documentation Jim put together on 0846 and I agree with his conclusions.

David Goerndt

 

Why not thank the man for sharing the car with others?
I saw the P4 at the FCA event, and I was glad it was there for me to ogle. Do I want some net historian, or even a Fiat rep to decide not to invite it to the next event? Hel% no !