The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

You mean the 156 of course...

 

From what I've gather during the long running debate, the original 0846 was built from a modified P3 chassis. Correct?
Next question: Did Ferrari MODIFY the P3 chassis for 0846 by trial and error and eyeballing, or did they work off a set of modified P3 blueprints? Keep in mind that I am referring to 0846 specifically.

 

Arlie
I'm not sure I understand your question. 0846 began as a P3 Tipo 593 chassis. It was modified as per "330 P3/P4 (1967) SCHEDA TECHNICA" into a Tipo 593/603 chassis. For a clearer explanation see document in Rossa which hopefully Rob will have back up soon.
Regards

 

My understanding, (from what Mr. G has written here) is that Ferrari had some form of documentation to cover the changes. I don't know if they were blueprints or just some change order paperwork.

Mr. G has stated on multiple occasions that the frame of his car matches the changes described in the documents that controlled the conversion of a P3 into a P3/P4.

Erich
PS I am too lazy to go searching for the actual quotes, I will leave that up to others

 

I am confused about some statements in the Nielsen article. Below one of the photographs, there is this statement: "Note how the chassis has been modified to accept the P4 engine. If you had the original blueprints, you would like this to join up straight."

This statement seems to imply that the builder of the chassis had no blueprints from which to make the P3 to P4 modifications.

 

I don't have the pictures on this computer, but does someone have the shots that they can post of the motor mounts for a P4 and compare them to Jim's car?

 

Arlie
I think if you read the underling document. (Rossa) it will become clear.

If you had P4 chassis blueprints, and commissioned/built chassis to those blueprints which David did in the case of, 0900, 0900A, and 0900B,you would have a chassis where the rear P4 engine mounts would line up with a P4 engine among other things. On my chassis they do not because my chassis IS NOT BUILT TO P4 Chassis blueprints but is instead a P3 Chassis, modified exactly as described in the "SCHEDA TECHNICA" to accept a P4 engine as was one UNIQUE chassis: 0846.

Keep that in mind and re read post #9.

 

Pete:

No offense taken. I've got pretty thick skin. Allow me to buy you a beer sometime.

I think that Jim's openness on his cars is good for the hobby, especially the garage shots with things partially disassembled. Its rare that we get to see these cars on some manicured lawn with people in sport coats and ties, but to me, its much more interesting to be able to see the stuff that makes these things go.

Is 0846 as original as Stroll's car? No. But no one ever said it was. Are there enough original bits on it to be considered 0846? Probably. The state of New York thinks so and Ferrari did have the right at that time to object. It chose not too.

It is a car with stories, but so what. All cars have stories. If people didn't like convoluted tales that happened on two continents, Barnes and Noble would be out of business.

As one of the so called historians myself (and I am one of the hard core in the aforementioned group), I want to challenge the others that really want to have a say in this matter. I took the time to fly 9000 miles to spend 2 hours with the car. I have a hard time accepting the attitude of some of the others in this hobby that cast it off as a fake without even bothering to do their homework.

And as Carbon has hinted at, there are more "storied" cars out there. Some of which have done quite well at Pebble Beach. I'm all in favor of revisiting those cars too.

Cheers,
Erik

 

Cheers! BTW we really enjoy using your gift.

 

Thanks, glad they are getting some use. Best.

 

I would think so!

 

Erik and others,

I was not questioning Jim's car at all ... just having a little dig at this closed club of so called Ferrari historians. The only experience you need to be a Ferrari historian is the ability to do research ... not a Ferrari chassis tag on your butt.

Thus IMO every single person on this earth who has opened a coffe table book on the history of Ferrari has graduated the first paper on Ferrari historianship. Those that go further are working towards a PHD.

Thus yes it is tiresome to have to refute everybodies comments (an example of going over the same material is a few threads above this one ... the engine mounts have been discussed in minute detail before) but we just do not know what somebody might stumble across in their amature research that if based on proveable fact might provide the answer. Now if this did not come from a certified Ferrari historian (elitist ) does that mean we ignore it? ... ofcourse not.

IMO this car has it over Lawrences car ... ie. mystique and all, and this generates interest and thus poor Jim as its custodian is either going to have to continue to discuss it's heritege (there is a positive side to this as each discussion might lead somewhere) OR lock it away in privacy . In a way this probable pisses Lawrence off (but I imagine he is probably pretty damn hapyp with his lot), but you see we know everything there is to know about his car ... thus yep, been there and done that, little interest ...

Again bravo Jim for sharing this with all of us ... I would not be on this site without Jim's car (er, cars ) myself (although now here I do enjoy the breaks from work).

Pete

 

really surprising that there is so much back and forth discussion still on this topic of 0846's origin. the car is bieng presented to the world as the " Surviving Remains" , not the whole freaking historically original car. what is left is the best we can hope for as far as 0846 goes. few of these types of cars were made, 0846 is unique given the P3/4 modifications, it is one of one. all that remains is all we have to celebrate of it. far better to have a tangible car here for the world to enjoy than to merely have a buch of pictures of a car that was and is no more. ONE OF ONE . nothing more, nothing less. thank you again Mr G.

 

I just read an interesting post here:

Pictures of the Alfa 33 1969 Pininfarina V8 here (note this is a styling exercise not a Alfa T33 or Alfa T33 Stradale, etc.): http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showpost.php?p=80392&postcount=1

Davebert's thread and pictures of the Ferrari P5 250 here: http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showpost.php?p=80539&postcount=2

They definitely look EXACTLY the same (other than colour and badge) and may go somewhere to explaining the chassis identity of the P5 (?), ie. which was first?, is the chassis of the P5 actually a T33?

Pete
Whole Alfabb thread: http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=9845

 

Jim,

Is that a smug, satisfied smile, or a you don't know half of it smile?

I'm really surprised that this thread has not generated a large discussion ... as the cars are identical. Somebody must know which came out first, etc.

Pete

 

Those who subscribe to Rossa can see photo's of the chassis that currently resides in Japan in my 0846 document along with a table of measurements comparing and contrasting it with a P4 chassis.

Pete my friend I would have to say smug, satisfied.

Best

 

Okay this is very interesting (to me) and far better than most of the conversations going on here lately ... .

Thus what I am understanding is that there was only ever one body originally and somebody has replicated it since.

Yes interesting and one can see how #0846 could have got messed up in this. But we have photos of the 'real (ie. original ... or are we looking at the new chassis)' P5 that prove that the chassis did not look like a P3/4 or even P4 chassis.

Though it is not entirely impossible that chassis #0846 was indeed the showcar wearing the P5 body ... then the body was removed and #0846 sold to Piper. We need photos of the original chassis ...

My guess is that it would be a new chassis ... would not even have to be fully functional 'cause the car is never going to be used as more than art.

True.

Now Jim, you say photos of the current P5 chassis are in the #0846 document ... do we have photos of the original P5 chassis?

What I cannot understand is why somebody would bother removing the body of the chassis and then roll a T33 chassis underneath. Surely it would have been easier just to stick the Alfa motor and gearbox in the existing chassis ... and change a few badges and wheels.

The T33/2 chassis is not a spaceframe, as such, but a chassis made out of large fuel carrying tubes in a sort of U shape ... the suspension hangs of this structure. Surely this would have been a huge task. Now ofcourse I do not know what type of T33 #115 was ... it may have been a later flat 12 one? and that series may have been a true spaceframe.

Thus I'd love to see photos of the current chassis in the Alfa concept car ... versus photos of the original in the P5, it just makes no sense to me to actually change the chassis for just a show car. Thus I would like proof that the Alfa has a T33 chassis in it ...

Pete

 

Karl Ludvigsen's 1968 article includes measurements that prove that the original P5 was not built on P 3/4 0846's chassis.

The Ketchum photographs prove that Japan P5 is not built on P 3/4 0846's chassis.

Both Karl's article and the Ketchum photographs are in my document.
This part of the story is solved.

Barchetta is wrong. Period.


Best

 

The 33 is definitely a V8. Here are some pictures from our Retromobile feature:
http://www.***************.com/images/slide/retro2005/2892.jpg

http://www.***************.com/images/slide/retro2005/2893.jpg

http://www.***************.com/images/slide/retro2005/2894.jpg

http://www.***************.com/images/slide/retro2005/2895.jpg

There was no way I could examine the chassis.

The complete coverage can be found here: http://www.***************.com/frame.php?file=features/retro2005.html

 

Hi
Your photo # 2895 clearly shows the chassis and that this is built on a 33 as Wayne posted. It also seems that this is where P5's original body wound up.
Best

 

James do you want more pictures of that for your archive? If you PM me your email address I can send you the originals, with some different angles of the engine and interior.

 

Love to see them myself ... but up to you

Pete