The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Here's a couple of old modeling pictures of the two cars, that someone may enjoy. Note that the current color of the 33 is nothing like its original color.
Photo credits: P5 picture is from Quattroruote, August 1968. Alfa 33 picture is from "La Carrozzeria Italiana".
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Those are great shots!

 

Recently Three Gentlemen from pininfarina came by to inspect my car, 0846. After inspection they agreed that P5 as it exist's today in Japan is not built on the chassis remains of 0846. They also believe that P5 as it exists in Japan is built on the original P5 show car chassis. Interestingly they also feel, after forensic investigation, that the body on the Alfa T-33 show car is not P5's original body despite similarities and that P5's original body no longer exists.

One of these Gentlemen who, unlike other's who have opined on these pages, was around on the day and directly involved with racing P3's, 412 P's, and P 4's, after inspecting my car and reading my 100 page document, stated that what I posited in my research was entirely possible.

I've also had the opportunity to inspect Todd Morici's 1967 312 F1 and am totally convinced that the research in my document as it relates to the Block and Gearbox in my car is entirely correct.

 

A BOMB IN THE HOLE!

Jim, I'm sure that you are aware that one of the reasons that you have been getting a lot of resistance about your car is that, you are not just opening Pandora's Box, you are blowing the damn thing up!

I don't have any personal knowledge about specific cars. But, in shooting the breeze with various folks, I have heard stories that a lot of these old and supposedly valuable cars are not what their owners think they are. Back when these cars were little more than junk, people would make mongrels out of them just for grins. After all, who knew?

Then when prices went through the roof during the 80s buying frenzy, some of these mongrels became purebreeds. Imagine that!

I'm not saying that these rebuilders originally meant to deceive anybody. After all, these old Ferraris were basically kit cars to begin with. But along the way, there must have been a certain amount of temporary amneisa.

Dr "Putting on flame retardant suit" Who

 

1) Did the gentleman from Pininfarina who was "around on the day" (1967-68) know what chassis WAS used to construct P5? Was it a P-series chassis, a Dino chassis, or something made up specifically for the P5 show car? It must have been SOMETHING.

2) Did these gentlemen actually travel to Japan to view the current version of P5? I'm afraid I don't know the details of the story of P5. As I understand it, P5 was constructed by Pf, did the show circuit for a while, then was "deconstructed" by Pf in order to build the Alfa 33 show car using the P5 body and an Alfa chassis. According to your post, they think the current P5 is built on the "original" P5 chassis. Is there a traceable history on that particular chassis after the P5 body was removed from it? Or is that story only partially true? How did the current owner of P5 acquire the chassis?

 

Jeff these Gentlemen (PF) built the original P5 and built and sold the version of P5 that is now in Japan. They believe that the the original P5 was deconstructed by PF and perhaps its body was used by PF for a later 512 based study and was not used for the Alfa showcar which they also built and now have back and have scanned/examined. It looks like the original P5 chassis and 312 F1 motor were reused by PF to build the version of P5 now in Japan. P5 was never, nor is now, a running chassis.

P 5 was originally most probably built on a show car chassis. There are pictures of P5's chassis in my 100 page document.

Best

 

I'm afraid I can't fathom why someone/anyone would go to the time, trouble, and expense of having Pininfarina build an exact replica of the 250 P5, using the original chassis and drivetrain, and NOT go the extra mile to make a runner out of it. What does the current owner actually own? It isn't a car, it's just a ....... thing.

It has a Ferrari engine, a Ferrari transmission, Ferrari wheels, it has brake components, suspension components, fuel tanks, an oil tank, an exhaust system, an injection system - so why not add some working electrics, some brake lines, etc. ? If the chassis isn't up to the job, this would have been the perfect time to beef it up. It's just tubing. The body doesn't look "slap-dash", they could have made it streetable. If Ferrari and Pininfarina were too busy to make a runner out of it in 1968, why not do it now? Seems like a useless project to me, to just build a static display of an old show car.

 

It's been done before. The Maser Boomerang originally wasn't a runner but at a later time it was turned into one.

 

Many so called car enthusiasts just like to collect the odd vehicles and look at them ... I also think they need their head read, but it takes all types I guess.

Pete

 

Time and again, those who were there in days gone by can't help but ensure 0846's return to glory.

Congratulations, 'Napolis.

salute

 

My former boss had an original and complete Midget/Sprint car from the late 40's. Perfect condition, all parts were there, and had he given me a crack at it I could've had it running within a week. He just liked to wax it and talk about trailering it to events- I popped my head in not so long ago and it was in the exact same (awkward) location that I had pushed it into three years earlier but 10x cleaner.

While not on the same level of automobile, I'm very familar with the mentality. A non-running replica makes perfect sense to me in a very warped kinda way.

Congrats Jim!

-Chris

 

http://forumducavallino.nuxit.net/Forum-du-Cavallino/forum_4.php?msg=4501&return=1#top

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http://forumducavallino.nuxit.net/Forum-du-Cavallino/index.php?owner=ludo95

 

Interesting. Is there a version that a English reading and writing New Zealander, living in Australia can understand?

Thanks
Pete

 

http://video.msn.com/video/p.htm?m=Home%20and%20Living&mi=NBC%20Today&i=19169470-3c03-431a-bd4f-be464ed58b28,bd4b833f-7ea1-4ff1-aba3-1539bf00ad4c,8246142f-ade4-48d6-be21-f088a50f60d2&p=Living_NBC%20Today&GT1=6365&rf=http://www.msn.com/

Check out the AUTOS/ENTHUSIASTS section.....

 

Thanks for the link. Great video about evolution of aero cars.

 

Jim, congratulations.

You can also be proud of a less appreciated quality of yours...

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134896395&postcount=58

 

Great vid guys...awsome car that is

 

Thanks! Didn't know about that. Yellow MK-IV is mine as well.
Best

 

Wow, very lucky man. How much do you drive these cars? and which one is more fun to use? Any pics you can post of them?

 

I've put over 25K street miles on the MK-IV. Just getting started on P 3/4.
Will be driving 0846 and 002C at the Historic Targa Florio in late May.
If you search you'll find MANY photo's of them here including some of them heading down the highway.

 

Jim,

I admit - I suck at the search thing. I was looking for the P3/4 pic on the NY interstate, but couldn't find it. It seems a lot of your pictures disappeared in the great crash of '04. Any chance they can be posted again in the showroom?

-steve

 

Voila....
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Very very great Vid
Is it impossible to save it to my PC????

 

That was very cool. Thanks for the link!

 

That picture rocks.