The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I can't imagine the reactions you must get… I can't vouch for my own behavior. In fact, allow me to apologize in advance for anything silly I might do should we ever cross paths!

 

That's the one! Thanks mucho, Jim!

-steve

 

I just received issue 147 of Cavallino today and as usual I start with the letters. 0846 is mentioned in one letter from a reader doing a scale model of the car as it was configured at LeMans in '67. What was interesting was the the "P" designation. One book says "prototipo" and another (a Ferrari publication) says "posterior" for the position of the engine in the rear! There is also a publisher's note that says: "At the present time, the Factory considers the original car destroyed." More fuel for the fire I guess.

 

Hey, David ....
You could at least have waited for Jim to get back from Sicily before you re-opened the '#0846' debate. LOL !

 

He's having too much fun flying around the roads of Sicily. Of course, this issue of Cavallino was put together two months ago (or more) so the info could be out of date.

David

 

I am.

The Publisher of Cavallino's statement is categorically untrue and as he is in possession of evidence to the contrary, shows a reckless disregard for the truth. It will be dealt with in an appropriate manner.

I am sad to say Paul that based on thorough investigation and recollection by Nino Vaccarella my P 3/4 will once and for all be ineligible to join the Replica P 4 Club.

Cheers

 

Welcome back. Looks like you had a blast.

 

That's a real surprise, too, Jim. One would have thought that having suffered the obvious acute embarrassment (shown in the photographic evidence below) of having 'dropped it' in front of the local crowds in his home town of Collesano on the second lap of the '67 Targa Florio, that Nino would have expunged that day from his memory.
He certainly doesn't seem to be making much effort to examine the damage to #0846.
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Damn ! And there was I just about to make you an honorary member, Jim ! LOL

 

If I had not read your research on 0846, I would have believed what they wrote. That's why I put the 'gasoline on the fire' comment in my post. It seems like they want to keep the controversy alive. It was really unecessary to add that comment IMO. Welcome back, I hope we see photos soon!

 

Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy controversy, David - that's what keeps these BB's alive !

 

Before we get into the serious stuff, I thought that I would upload this ‘little gem’ that I’ve had ‘on file’ for almost a year, as the artist, who originally penned the illustration, seemed a little reluctant to post it himself, before.
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I was considering starting another #0846 thread, calling it ‘The Official ‘#0846’ Dissention Thread’ ….
But seeing as we already have two #0846 threads on the go, and not wishing to spoil Jim’s (and Boudewijn’s) Targa adventure, I’ll make best use of this one.
It seems to have taken a turn for the worse already, anyway, with Jim’s thinly veiled threat of legal action against the Publisher of Cavallino ….
So what the heck !

Gentlemen.
May I present some ‘new’ evidence as to the true origins of the car commonly known as ‘#0846’.

 

I had the good fortune to win this item on eBay the other day:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8308454580
It was the seller’s words: “a couple of P4 prototypes / replicas” in the description, that caught my attention.

So, obviously with my own personal interest in P4 replicas, I 'asked the seller a question' ….

Please scroll down to the ‘Questions from other members’ section of the auction, and click on ‘more’ ....
And read the interesting second part (concerning 'Chassis # DP3') of the seller’s answer ....
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Now, I had a pretty good idea that one of the cars was David Piper’s 'continuation' P4 #0900, because I can remember David telling me that Robert Brooks (then of Christie’s) had asked him if he could provide a couple of cars for their Monaco auction on 26th May, 1987, “to add some interest to the sale”. What I didn’t realise, until I came across this auction catalogue, was that the other ‘P4 replica’ was none other than DP3 – A.K.A. #003 …

The sale description of Lot N° 81, reads as follows (copied ‘verbatim’) from the catalogue:

1967-STYLE 3-LITRE FERRARI ‘312’ P3/4 REPLICA

This beautifully-made replica Ferrari P3/4 is the fruit of another David Piper project, being modelled along the lines of the genuine ex-Maranello Concessionaires team 330P3/4 prototype (#0854) which he owned and raced so widely in major-league endurance events from late-1967 through 1968-1969.

The chassis frame has again been manufactured to original form and all the aluminium work on the frame’s P4-style semi-monocoque centre section has been executed by Mario Allegretti, former partner of Piero Drogo, ….

British specialist Kerry Adams (one of DP’s mechanics) has completed assembly of this particular car, using a (and this bit is specially for ‘Macca’) five-speed Ferrari Formula 1 transaxle very similar to those used in the early P3 cars with inboard rear disc-brake mountings. Other such mechanical components as the drive-shafts, suspension assemblies (the uprights of which Jim subsequently replaced) steering rack-and pinion mechanism, instrumentation, etc is all original as used by Ferrari in their customer P3/4s of 1967. Improvements to the car include a P4-style chassis centre section and also P4 pedal layout and pedal box. Furthermore it features quickly-detachable Girling 18/4 front brake callipers, quickly-detachable discs and knock-off hub fixings as original P4, plus ….

The engine is a very special 3-litre V12 four-cam ex-Formula 1 unit, hence ‘312’ in Formula 1-style – one of three engines bought by Mr. Piper from Ferrari vie Mr. Ferrari’s son Ing Piero Lardi-Ferrari, executive head of the modern Reparto Corse, racing department.

Due to its Formula 1 provenance and smaller capacity than the familiar 4-litre and 4.4-litre sports-prototype Ferrari engines, this one is said to have a particularly piercing and impressive exhaust note.
It revs comfortably to 10,500 r.p.m. compared to the 4(.2)-litre P4 engine’s normal 8,000-8,500 r.p.m., although the larger unit is of course considered mechanically ‘safe’ to 10,000 r.p.m.

This very special ‘312’ P3/4 replica, which employs so many perfectly original Ferrari components, is finished with nose and tail panels moulded in glass-fibre and impregnated in Ferrari racing red. It is presented in open-cockpit Spider form ….

The car is offered as new, with no history attached to it as an entity, although its major mechanical components of course have individual factory histories of their own. ….

So, from the above description, much of which will sound very familiar to those of you who followed all the ‘#0846’ threads, last year …. It would seem that David Piper knew all along EXACTLY what he was selling, when he sold ‘003’ to Jim in the Summer of 2000, or at least the author of that sales description did.
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True, and this has been one interesting and controversial topic. It was just odd that Cavallino decided to put that editor's note at the end of the reader's mail. The first note saying that there were several people involved in looking at 0846, then they added another comment about the Factory listing the car as destroyed!

 

Now - about that 'honorary membership', Jim ....

 

Paul
Nope.
The gear box (593) is not F1 but P3 with Le Mans 66 ACO stamps.
That remains fact.
The engine after the Pedretti rebuild is now 4 liter without "sandwich plates" and the block is P4 as confirmed by curved casting rib vs straight casting rib and P4 stampings.
The heads are P4 with 67 Le mans ACO stamps.
That remains fact.
No part of the chassis including the center section is P4.( the pedal box is P4 as it should be) No part of the chassis is built to P4 blueprints.
There are several unique modifications that were done YEARS later by DIFFERENT welders exactly to the Technical Data sheets of 0846 and IMO most importantly the chassis accident damage that occurred at the 67 Targa Florio has now been confirmed by the person who caused it.
That remains fact.

Why you would still think you're correct about the gearbox for example in the face of P3 stampings, 66 Le Mans ACO stamps, and 0846 press photos clearly showing my 593 type gear box, NOT F1, is beyond me.

You believe Piper made a P3 chassis even though he only had P 4 blueprints, years later modified it as per 0846's technical data sheets, cutting and discarding previously welded P3 chassis tubes the vestiges of which still remain, replicated hidden modifications as per the technical data sheets, burned the right side of the chassis as per 0846's Le Mans fire, replaced those burned chassis tubes years later with different diameter chassis tubes. Torqued the chassis left to right a ½ inch. as likely happened to 0846 when Bandini flipped it at the Targa in 66 ( Nino co drove it that year as well), replicated the chassis damage that occurred when Nino crashed it at the Targa in 67, (As an aside your comment that he doesn't seem to be inspecting the chassis immediately following the crash is silly and insulting. I suggest before you make comments like that you try to drive a P4 up the Targa as both he and I have done). He says he remembers every detail of the car both before and after the crash and I, Clay Regazzoni, Nanni Galli and others who heard him say it and have inspected my car with their eyes believe it as well.
As Clay said: That's a lot of trouble to go through for what?"

Nino Vaccarella has unequivocally stated that this is his car and I believe him.

 

Jim
How is Nino these days? I met him a couple of years ago and got his autograph on a photo of him winning the 1965 Targa in the P2.
What EXACTLY did Vacarella say? Any photos of NV with the car? Did he drive your car last week? What did he think?
Nathan

 

Come on, Jim .... Nino's body language in that second photo says it all. If there had been any bushes close by, I bet he would have crouched down and had a 'Mika Hakkinen' moment.

 

Maybe Nino should have taken those 'cool shades' off, before making such a statement.
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Paul
Of course he wasn't referring to the body. Everyone knows the body is incorrect and has for years. He was referring to the chassis and the damage it suffered and how the wheel base was modified 12 mm between 66 and 67, something Clay found quite interesting as well.

Your posting photo's of the body is silly. Your "Cool shade" remarks are insulting. You will continue to believe what you want, in the case of the gear box once again against evidence you still can't refute.

We're plowing the same ground. I for one am on to other things.

 

While I would love to have been at that auction, having read about it in 'Classic & Sports Car' and been looking out (not very hard, I admit) for a catalogue, I don't think my name would have appeared in print!

And I second, third or whatever, Jim's last post - been there, said that, bought the T-shirt..........the gearbox in Jim's car is the one from the P3 prototype from photo evidence, NOT the one on the F1.


Paul M

 

So? A gearbox does not make a car. Look at Post #13 - the auction description of David Piper's car. Sounds like this is what Jim bought, and this does NOT read like a description of an original P4 (whatever chassis #, or gearbox).
To get from 003 to 0846 is a hell of a journey!
Nathan

 

Just curious, if JG's car is NOT the same one listed in the auction catalog, exactly where IS the car listed in the auction catalog today?