The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Arlie
As you know I live in NY. NY is not Ark nor are it's tax laws the same. Once again you are wrong.
More importantly once again your post has nothing to do with 0846.
Best

 

I'm confused Jim. I just did 5 minutes of quick research and I found this info on New York:

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/edit/state/profiles/state_tax_NY.asp

"Personal and real property taxes
• Real property in New York is taxed based on its value. Counties, cities, towns, villages, school districts, and special districts each raise money through the real property tax to pay for local services. The amount of a particular property's tax bill is determined by the property's taxable assessment and the tax rates of the taxing jurisdictions in which the property is located."

That sounds just like Arkansas to me. For example: If you owned a car valued at $20,000 here in Pulaski County, Arkansas, your personal property taxes on that car would be $20,000 X 20% X .069 (local millage rate)=
$276.00.

If you owned a $100,000 repro Ferrari made from "Piper parts", your car's personal property tax liability would be $100,000 X 20% X .069= $1380.00

But if the state suddenly decided to reassess your car because they found out that it was a "one of a kind P4 Ferrari worth $4,000,000, then your taxes would be $4,000,000 X 20% X .069 = $55,200.

So there is the price of state DMV authentication here in Arkansas:

$55,200 - $1380.00= $53,820. That's over FIFTY THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS worth of increased tax liability just for the privelage of saying that you own a "one of a kind P4 Ferrari" whether the claim is actually true of not. If the state finds out about your claims of extreme rarity and value, the Tax Adjusters will "come a knockin'" And those tax men just love it when little birdies plant a bug in their ear about somebody not paying enough taxes compared to what their property is worth.

So Jim, don't move to Arkansas. They won't let you have your "authenticated cake" and eat it too. Down here, you always "pay the Piper"!

 

Jeff, I'm not saying that anybody is trying to put anything over on anybody. My point is: just because some DMV issues a title does not mean that any particular car gets a greenlight down the highway to authenticity. But if a "title" means "authenticity", then along with that "authenticity" comes a matching tax liability from the county that resides in the state jurisdiction that issued the title. And if those tens of thousands of extra tax dollars are NOT being collected, it's probably because the appropriate agencies do not actually believe that the car is worth millions of dollars.

Since when does the tax man NOT go after every penny that they can legally get?

 

Move to Texas....where our Ferrari 5 digit VINs are recognized by the computer system as a "Farm Implement Trailer"....you can correct them, if you want to.......or not.

I think you are getting 'sales tax' and 'road use tax' confused there, Horsefly!

One is paid with title application, the other is for the plates..

 

NEGATIVE on the confusion, Tex, but I understand where you're coming from down there in Texas. Here in Arkansas, you pay a "sales tax" on used cars priced over $2000 (or is it $2500, I forget), you pay a "title and registration" fee, and then you pay a yearly "personal property tax" on that same vehicle just for the privelage of owning the vehicle. The personal property tax is levied by each individual COUNTY, but the STATE vehicle title records are accessible by each county, so if you've licensed and registered a high dollar ride with the state, the local county assessor can find out about it and come knocking at your door. I don't think that Texas has a property tax these days. But they call it a "road use tax" and collect it when they renew your license and registration. I think Oklahoma does the same thing.

Suffice it to say that if your car is REALLY authentic and worth MILLIONS, they WILL come knocking at your door or mailbox with a bill to collect. If not, then you're probably driving a kit car.

 

Uhhhhhh...they are FIATs!!!


That's it!



Just an old FIAT......

 

Arlie,

Isn't 'real property' the same as real estate, i.e. land and buildings? In NJ, 'property tax' generally refers to land and buildings I think it's the same in NY. Not sure on this, just a thought.

That said, I don't think Piper sold a real car as a fake nor is Jim claiming the car is 0846 for tax purposes.

Art S.

 

Art, here in Arkansas, "property" for the purpose of "personal property tax" assessment is considered seperately from "real estate property tax". "Personal property" is considered to be the automobiles, boats, motorcycles, and just about anything of value EXCEPT real estate. Once again, don't know about all other states like New York. But in Arkansas, you couldn't get away with owning a $4 million dollar car and paying only $1800 dollars a year for the privilege of owning it.

 

Jim
In view of the comment above; when Wayne Sparling said that he repaired the chassis was he talking about damage caused at the Targa in 1967? Any chance of posting this Officer's photos?
Nathan

 

There may have been thousands of Lockeed Electras, but how many besides Amelia's plane crashed in the South Pacific near the flight path of her plane? PROBABLY none. But until you have PROOF, like a serial number on a piece of metal, or a skeleton with dental records, or DNA, etc, you still have speculation that is NOT a theorem, in your own words, "a CONCLUSION accepted by everyone in the field, until more evidence comes in to prove it incorrect". EVERYONE in the vintage Ferrari field does not accept Jim's view of his car.

Your question is like the standard question that "Doubting Thomases" ask about UFOs: If they really exist, why don't they just land and make open contact with us?

As always, I just give my standard reply: Just because I don't have an answer to the question, that doesn't mean that they do, or do not, exist.
Just because we don't know WHERE the chassis came from does NOT guarantee or authenticate that chassis as being the original. In other words, lack of an answer does not make it LESS of an unknown entity, nor does it validate its authenticity.

 

Arlie - how many times do you need to be told that the very welder who welded those very welds when and where welding needed to be done recognized them as his weldwork?

 

Hmmm, I'm real glad I do not live in the USA. Over here you only pay personal gains tax (personal property tax) when you sell something, and make a profit.

Thus if Horsefly is right what about Walter with his sheld fill of expensive Ferraris rotting away ... surely the tax man is after him with those F1 Ferraris of unknown value.

Thus surely Jim will only have to pay tax if and when he decides to sell the car, and thus it will be a simple $X million sale price - Purchase price - devaluation * tax rate = $tax (ie. on profit).

Otherwise lets talk about the little old lady that has owned a simple house in say NY since she was 20. That old house happens to now be on very valuable land ... but she has no income and is retired. Surely the tax man does not knock on her door demanding $100,000 per year because her simple old house is now worth millions because of the land value?

Does not make sense to me, how you can be taxed on the value of your property alone, surely only when you sell it?

Pete

 

Arlie,

You do realize that I previously brought God into this thread and now you have introduced aliens (or at least UFO's)!


Art S.

 

Pete,

I don't know what it’s like in Arkansas, but the system works the way you described it in most of the US for personal property.

However, most local governments are funded by property tax (based on land and building values), so these do fluctuate.

By the way, how far are you from the Gold Coast?

Regards,

Art S.

 

A complete state away ... I live in Sydney, New South Wales. The Gold Coast is in Queensland (state) and I believe around 10 hours drive from Sydney ...

Pete

 

Arlie
Once again you are wrong. What part of that don't you understand? No matter how much you continue to talk out of your ass, in NY the only tax that is due on Motor Vehicles is sale tax baised upon what you paid. PERIOD. Until you sell the car it is not a taxable event. That is fact. Ranting and spouting won't change it. Why you seem interested in irrelevant bull**** is beyond me. Even if you were right about the tax consequences, which you're not,how is it relavant to 0846,what would it matter, or why would I care? We live in a great country. If I owe tax I pay tax.

 

Pete, I have often wondered about that exact same thing. Surely Walter's cars are worth a million dollars or so. The laws differ from state to state. Oklahoma has no property tax, but the "tax man" still gets your money when you register and license your car. That's why it costs $200 or more to license your car in Oklahoma. I only pay $25 in Arkansas. But they also charge me several hundred dollars per year as a "personal property tax". So they get you either way.

You're talking about a tax on a profit from the sale of the item. I'm talking about a tax for OWNING the item.
I can't say for sure about New York, but here in Arkansas, you have to pay a "personal property tax" EVERY YEAR based on the value of the car, NOT the price that you paid for it. If the car is worth $4,000,000, you $55,200 EACH AND EVERY YEAR THAT YOU OWN THE CAR!!!!!

Pete, it is indeed sad, but it happens. The hypothetical little old lady would have to pay the taxes or sell and move out. It happens. Some states have a "grandfather" clause that allows for property owners to pay taxes based on their original purchase price, but this is usually only for homes and land, not personal possessions. I heard of just such a case on a few years ago. I talked to a guy by telephone who owned a wrecker service on Long Island. He was selling a 1969 Corvette (Baldwin Motion?). He and his family lived in a house that had been owned by his family for 70 or 80 years. Originally, they had owned several hundred acres. But through the years, the land became SO valuable that they had to sell off some of the land because they could not afford to pay the property taxes. He eventually retired to Florida I believe. (He was a friend of Don Garlits, the drag racing champion.)

 

Yes he was. Interestingly both he and the Officer mentioned that the right rear wheel was flopping around after the crash. Wayne said that the A arm had broken as well. As for the damage it's still quite visable and more importantly so is the repair. The photo's and a lot else will come out soon.
On another front I think 002C will also be making the trip to the 100th Anniversary of the Targa Floria next June along with 0846. Do you know Peter Giddings? He had a good look yesterday.
Best

 

Absolutely correct!!

I live in NY. You do NOT have to pay taxes on a vehicle until sold and that is if its over a very high value. Most times you do not have to claim the capital gains unless you sell a certain amount of cars in a year or you maed a very big profit. You pay taxes also based on what you paid at the time of registering the vehicle. Thats it.

I own several restored cars in NY and have never been asked to pay taxes on the cars for owning them. DMV never reqiured that as far as I know.

Don't give them any ideas. I really don't need to pay more taxes than I do already.

Ed

 

Before anybody starts wailing and gnashing their teeth about New York inheritance taxes...

There is no inheritance tax and the estate tax is related to federal estate tax collection.

http://www.retirementliving.com/RLstate3.html#NEW YORK

SHEESH!
___
Napolis - Which of your fleet is getting the most seat time as of late?

 

Congratulations Ed to you and Jim. You're lucky to live in a state with no personal property taxes. But ask anybody that does, and they know that you PAY EACH AND EVERY YEAR just to own any particular car. So the LAST thing that one would want is to be in a "personal property tax" state and have a $100,000 pile of parts be elevated to $4,000,000 in value by the stroke of a pen from some little old ladies at the local DMV. That would just open you up to over $50,000 a year in county tax liabilities.

Speaking of taxes, how did a rare multi million dollar P4 like the alledged 0846 get shipped into the United States without paying a TON of duty taxes? What did it's bill of shipping say on it: "P4 #0846" or "Ferrari parts"? If the car is finally authenticated as BEING 0846, who is going to write a check to the U.S. Customs Service because there was a mistake on the bill of shipping, and the car REALLY was the one and only LeMans racer #0846? And as such, the U.S. Government was owed taxes on a MULTI-MILLION dollar race car, not a pile of Piper parts.

 

My car book and magazine collection is worth probibly 100 times what I paid, and the same the same situation exists for anyone who collects anything.

I seriously doubt the state is going to come knocking on the door to appraise my neighbor kids baseball card collection.

 

Arlie - in a nutshell, it's a Sales Tax - not a Value added Tax.

 

Once again you're talking out of your ass. Customs Duty is owed on the amount paid. Period.

Tom
I drove the Lola back and forth to Lime Rock this weekend about 250 miles.
It's a great driver and it loves those back roads. Driving her into the dawn as the sun starts to burn off the early morning fog is something you don't soon forget and as you fall asleep you can feel the seat sides holding you tight as you glide through the turns much like you feel the beach when you were a kid and played in the surf all day. Another thing you remember is the sound of the air flowing into those 48 IDA's as you press down the throttle and she explodes out of the turns.