The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Yes, but as far as I'm aware, 844 wasn't destroyed, and the parts that were snipped off turned into a "Phoenix" 844, rising from the ashes.

We can all tell stories. Ferrari himself told countless lies about his cars, going back to his days with Alfa Romeo. Without actually having been there, all one can do is make a decision based on the evidence presented.

and Art...
.....before one even discusses if God exists or not, there must be an agreement as to what constitutes God. Ask 100 different people what God is, and you will get 100 different answers.

 

Next time I bump into him, I'll ask him

Chris (I believe) does not romantise his racing past ... that was then and now is now. I think he is glad that he is still alive and from what I believe he does not even get involved that much in the classic car scene ... but then I have watched him demonstrate the 250F Maserati that he started racing (seriously) with.

Pete
ps: Chris' words on #846 and Le Mans ... sounds reasonably passionless to me, ie. just his race car.

 

It is very pretentious on my part to answer this one for mr Glickenhaus, so I apologize in advance, but here I go.

Why couldn't it be that mr Glickenhaus on one part enjoys owning a beautiful piece of machinery (and seeing others enjoy it's beauty just as much) without caring too much about the historical context and on the other part is defending the historical context to any claim that this context is any other than mr Glickenhaus beliefs and obviously has reason to belief so.

Of course the boy mentioned in the anecdote is only interested in a beautiful racecar (and therefor is probably more pure in its enjoyment of the car than those of us who are losing ourselves so much in it's historical context that we forget that either way, the car is a P4 in every way where our eye-sight is concerned), but be that as it may, it would be naive to disregard the historical context all together. Allthough it might be tempting to put history a side when it gets too complicated, it however does tell a great story about this particular car. Confirmation of it's history as #0846 doesn't change the car one bit, but it does provide us with a rare link to a beautiful and fascinating history, and some of us are sensitive to that.

It is only probable that the little boy in the story will grow sensitive to it as well when he starts to search for the backgrounds of the car he loves so much, for isn't that the logical consequence of true passion?

 

But I think where we differ is that I see cars as cars, ie. they should be driven and if race cars, they should be raced (carefully). I think you think that they should be rolled into a museum (probably with the dirt from the last race still smeared over the car).


A car, especially one with race history, is more than just a car; it's a historical document. Would you consider the Gutenburg bible in which half of what is there xerox copies a real Gutenburg bible?

I don't think cars should be put away in a museum. I do think they should be maintained, but kept as close to original as humanly possible.

In this specific case, Mr.G has stated it is his intention NOT to race the car, so in a sense, even though it gets used, it HAS been put away in a museum..

 

Very well put. One of the things that continues to amaze me about this rather small world of Ferrari enthusiasts (which has been made even smaller by the Internet) is the passion that gets invoked by these strange combinations of metal, rubber, leather, and whatnot that we call Ferraris.

Whatever brickbats get thrown at Jim, he can still smile at night because he has a beautiful car. Maybe this car has some of the DNA that roared around the banks at Daytona. Maybe it doesn't. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter because the beauty, grace and power of this car transcends all the harping and carrying on.

Play on Brother Jim. Sing your song.

 

Scraps?
Small Portions?

If you think that, you are sadly mistaken.

It is scraps and small portions that were repaired.

 

Man you are a nice bit of work ... *big sigh*

Nobody has said that a small bit of #0846's chassis were cut off and made into this chassis, nobody at all.

What Jim has discussed is that when Piper commissioned his 3 chassis' that the chassis #0846 was used to save the makers money (probably not Piper ) and thus making a 3rd chassis from scratch. This chassis only needed to have the rear corner repaired (refer photo of post '67 Le Mans accident) ... hardly a snip of the chassis.

#0846 after the fire would have been quite fixable ... but obviously with Ferrari pulling out of the sportscar racing it never was, and thus the wreck lay around until somebody found a way of using it again.

Some people are narrow minded, but inferring that Jim has taken a snip off the real chassis and made a completely new one is a bit on the nose. Jim hasn't done anything to the chassis other than restore it ... the repairs were made when the car was in active duty and afterwards when it became #0003 (again continuous history of that chasis).

Pete's trying very hard not to lower the tone of the thread

 

Good doggy. Nice doggy. You see Timmy. This doggy doesn't bite does he? Huh, oh crap! !@$#@!^@# dog!

 

[size=+2]WOOF[/size]

Pete

 

It was a hypothetical question. If the boy HAD asked the question, he could not have been given a guaranteed answer because this whole matter of the originality of 0846 is theoretical. The believers want so BADLY to believe, but nobody could give anybody a difinitive answer. The believers want so DESPERATELY for Jim's car to BE #0846, but nothing will be concrete evidence like so many other rare cars.

Then why does everybody turn their nose up at "replicas" if 99% of the population don't care whether it's real or a replica? Once again we have a contradiction: 99% of the population would admire the car even if it is a replica, but the all important Ferrari community will have none of that replica business, so the DESPERATE search for positive proof continues. If replicas are NOT such a bad thing, why not simply call Jim's car a wonderfull replica and have everybody appreciate it for what it is? WHY NOT? Because then you would have to acknowledge cars like P4Replica's car and dozens of others. The Ferrari wine and cheese crowd would be rolling Enzo over in his grave at the thought of THAT possibility. My my, what a quandry the Ferrarista are in now. Jim's car MUST be proven to be 0846, or it would have to be lumped in with,.......gulp,.......other REPLICAS.

 

IMHO the line of the whole weekend was uttered by my Daughter who BTW is only 16. She spent hours answering questions and showing the car to various people. At one point an older guy who probably didn't realize how young she is tried to pick her up by remarking as he pointed to my car:
"That car is very beautiful."
Her response?
"Yes James and I own that car."

 

It has happened to all of us. We have all been that little boy from mr Glickenhaus' story. At one time the passion was sparked by seeing our first car wearing the pranching horse on the bonnet. At that time, we only saw a beautiful car and at that time, it was enough. Perhaps we didn't even knew it was produced by a company named Ferrari, let alone the type. However, once the passion is strong enough, we start pursuing it by finding out more and more about the cars we apperantly love so much. Then we do discover they are called Ferrari's and wouldn't take us to long to realize that this company made a habbit of putting out stunningly beautiful pieces of machinery (well, pre-1980 anyway ).

I think it's only natural that his kind of passion grows out to the forms in which we are not only capable of labeling a car as a Ferrari and pinpointing a Ferrari to it's type, but also to mark a type to its specific chassisnumber and know it's particular history. It's only a natural proces that the passion leads to more and more specific interest and thus knowledge of whatever the subject of the passion me be. We tend to study the things we love, even if it does put our true and pure passion (loving a car for what it is, a beautiful sculpture) in danger.

But on the other hand, why would loving a car for it's specific history would be of any other or even lesser sort than loving a car for it's looks? What sparks your passion? A visual experience, the history, both?

However that may be, I believe mr Glickenhaus simply described in his story of the little boy, how he kept in touch with little mr Glickenhaus who fell in love with Ferrari's for the simple and innocent fact (?) that they are absolutly breathtaking to look at. In the mean time however, mr Glickenhaus did some growing up and so did his passion. Now, the passion also includes knowledge and interest in the specific history of a car.

When this P4 gets confirmed as 0846, then it is not only a beautiful classic racingcar, then it is also a mighty impressive piece of Ferrari-history, and -make no mistake about it- that does make a difference, no matter how beautiful the car in itself is.

 

If the other half was destroyed in an accident ... then yep that bible is the Gutenburg bible, 'cause the other half NO longer exists ... and again that is the continuous history of said bible.

Cool ... replacing uprights and wheels, etc. on a race car is very necessary maintenance. The originals (as Jim has stated) are in storage and could be bolted back on if you wish ... but ofcourse they would not be the originals anyway, because the Ferrari mechanics would not have cared one little bit and thus replaced them as they felt necessary to keep the car running.

Yes that is a shame, but Jim has his reasons ... and driving cars is the best way to maintain them, so he is going to do that. Yep I hate garage queens and their owners

Pete

 

You answered your own question. Yep the Ferrari community care, because they are all interested in the cars history. Normal people could not give a toss they just see a car with NO history.

Because it is not. No matter how modified it is the current version of #0846.

Pete
ps: You can call it a replica if you like, but then you think a car that has had its oil filter changed is now a replica ...

 

ROTFLMAO...!!!

In time, dude, give it time...

 

You're not passing around our notes out of school, are you Wayne?

 

In all the months of watching Mr. G's brilliant restoration and reading the varied opinions here on #0846Chat and elsewhere, this best sums it up for me.

best
rt

.

 

If you really want to define what is and what isn't, when the National Gallery of Art was established (the one in DC), the trustees had considered hanging copies of the great works if they were not able to aquire originals. Fortunately for the "purists", they have the funding to get the real ones.

There are still members of the flat world society. You're not going to get everyone to agree with you, no matter how much evidence there is.

I'm all for having people challenge theories and ideals as it promotes change and causes us to really make sure that our arguments are logical and valid, which is good for the long run. Maybe this point of view comes from having my teeth repeatedly kicked in during preparation of my doctoral dissertation.

 

If you read this link from the old archives which is to one of LWaynes postings dated Tuesday, December 03, 2002-11:42 am, I believe that you will find numerous references to "bits and pieces" and "parts of a frame" etc.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/162464.html#POST114559

So how did those "bits and pieces" and "parts of a frame" become one large intact frame that only need some restoration into what everybody now desperately wants to refer to as 0846???

 

I know a good ortho guy if you need one.

Seriously (as if anything on the Internet can be taken seriously) what do you think about my hypo on the 99 F1 car? Say that its chassis is replaced instead of fixed. Is it still the same car?

I realize that you are not part of that group of which we dare not speak. However, this group, which again does not exist, seems to have this un-natural thing for chassis and chassis numbers. (BTW, I have a number stamping kit that I can sell you cheap. Right here on the street.)

Thoughts?

 

Arlie, get over yourself. None of us 'desperately want' to call the car 0846. It would be more accurate to say that we've decided that no other car anywhere has a more substantial claim to that s/n. The car as it was built and modified from the factory no longer exists. A significant piece of the chassis does exist and we believe it's the basis for Jims car. Since the experts have decided that the chassis is the car, we've formed our opinions. You're entitled to your opinion also, and you've expressed it, ad nauseum. Now move on please and let the rest of us enjoy discussing this beautiful car. Maybe you could go to your garage and build yourself a Corvette instead of playing devils advocate on Jims Ferrari. Yes, I called it a Ferrari because I believe it is.

 

with the research, skill and care that went into the restoration of this car, it will one day be known as a hugely important car. it is a shame so many write in this thread w/ such venom and disrespect.

guys, this is jim glickenhaus...a serious car collector that does not act like a serious car collector. he is a low maintainance guy that has given us all inordinate access to his life and love of great cars. jim has allowed so many of us to call and be called friend. this is very rare in the circle he is able to run or runs in. lets not loose this...ok?!

jim, 0846 is simply spectacular and as i say, will one day be one of the most important ferraris in existance.

thanks jg!!

pcb

 

OK. This is like comparing a print to an original etching.

Replica=Print. Conveys artists ideas, INDIRECTLY. Looks same, satisfies 99% of people, and is cheaper/more available. Has history, but not LIFE, for lack of better term.

Real car, even repaired=etching. Direct contact made between artist(s) and object. Flow of thought/emotion/sweat onto object. Even if not worth more, it MEANS more.

When I have been around TR's, SWB's, etc, you can feel the input of everyone who designed/built/bought/drove/died in the thing. Actually gives it life, and we are really just another episode in same.

An example:I was in a hotel garage prepping a 550 Spyder for concours. Older man walking around in garage, walks up, speaks in German accent. Tells me this is high-rail car, what is chassis #. I told him, he told me '' I am Helmut Bott, and this is the first project I ever worked on @ Porsche, and this is the first car to have it installed." He remembered the car, working on it, designing the new rear suspension. Like Wayne remembered the repairs.

The money is irrelevant, it was spent and was felt to be a good buy without heritage. A very nice print for the money, frame could use freshening. Upon freshening frame, owner discovers signs it is NOT a print, a replica, but is indeed an etching. A whole layer of history and emotions are part of that. If you don't get it, you never will.

I reiterate, there are pontoon fendered TRs and LMs(Thanks Erik) out there which are nothing like a real Ferrari. As there are Porsches, Bugattis, and whatevers. Jim and men like him(eg Jay Leno,) are enthusiasts who say ''isn't this cool? Look what I found out''. Not desperate, not putting one over, and he would drive/use it the same way whether or not it is real, or replica. As would I.

I think Piper screwed up when he sold it, and can't remember the real story. His 250LM is bastardized, but you guys aren't *****ing about it. David left $1mil on the table, and he's pissed. Lots of experts didn't get their cut, and they're pissed. Maybe it isn't about Jim, but about the others???

So Arlie, Dr.Etc, how many of your original cells are in your 40+yo bodies right now...are you sure you are you???

FWIW
Lee