512TR Airco problem | FerrariChat

512TR Airco problem

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Melvok, Jul 1, 2010.

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  1. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #1 Melvok, Jul 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I would really appreciate some help /idea's to help me with my 512TR airco problem !

    Two problems occur:
    My knob for volume of air (25) will only give full cooling (max left) and
    the indicator on the left side of the "regulatingring for conductingthe airflow
    in horizontal direction" (26) cannot be regulated anymore.... (right side no problem!)

    Exchanged the switches 26 and this makes no difference...

    TR problem ?
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  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 Steve Magnusson, Jul 1, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
    I believe those are two separate problems:

    For the "My knob for volume of air (25) will only give full cooling", your 512TR uses the same blower motor current control architecture as a TR so the problem is either the power transistor (not so expensive and most likely IMO), #1 here:

    http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=1057

    or the speed control ECU with the knob (expensive and less likely IMO)

    If you do a search on "TR power transistor AC" it should get you a lot of threads where others have given a PN for an equivalent T03 transistor (you can reuse the heatsink) -- or look in the TR cross-reference thread.

    For the other problem, see if you can see the horizontal air butterfly valves on the side of the AC unit -- one is visible in that SPC figure to the right of the "34, 35, 34" labels. The bar LED represents the motion of the butterfly plate. Don't have advice on how to fix, but determining whether:

    1) the LH air valve is stuck fully open and the LED is giving a true indication, or

    2) the LH air valve does move properly when using the switch, but the LH LED gives a false indication

    might give a clue about where the trouble lies. IIRC, 348s have a lot of trouble with the motor/mechanism for the air valve breaking and your 512TR might use similar components.

    PS To prevent blowing up the power transistor in the future, it is best to operate only from 0 to 1/2 speed or full speed -- operating in the 3/4~7/8 speed range really toasts the power transistor (and this goes against human nature where we always "back it off a little from max" when we're given a knob to turn ;)).
     
  3. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #3 Melvok, Jul 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  4. JIMBO

    JIMBO Formula 3
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    At the risk of getting too personal, your knobs look "sticky"
     
  5. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Yes Jimbo.... you are right.....didn't dare clean them of yet !

    Common problem I read somewhere; also in BMW and other cars seen often...

    The sticky coverage could be washed off with several substances... brake-cleaners etc...

    Any knowledge...?
     
  6. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Can anyone explain to me what is the function of this power transistor ?
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #7 Steve Magnusson, Jul 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
    The power transistor is used to control the amount of current (and, therefore, the speed) of the blower fan motor at any setting below maximum. When you turn the knob to maximum, a relay closes and supplies the (full) current to the blower motor bypassing the power transistor (this is why when the power transistor fails, max speed still works, but not any lower speeds). See post #2 in this thread:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233550

    This type of current control is referred to as "common emitter" -- if you do an internet search on that term you should get more explanation/description.
     
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  8. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #8 Melvok, Jul 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
    This link was very good ! Thanx...

    I will have a look and get me an 2N3055 Transistor !

    Will let you know of course... :-0)

    And after that one is fixed I will have to investigate the the bar LED problem...
     
  9. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #9 Melvok, Jul 3, 2010
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  10. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    If it's in the stock locatiion, I believe it willl be in the same place as on a TR -- inside the vent area of the main cabin air outlet (the idea is/was using the AC air to help cool the transistor -- but it doesn't really work well enough ;)). I don't think that you'll have to disassemble the entire dash (as shown in this TR particular example), but you will need to remove center vent assembly to get access:
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    The other thing to check/compare is if the collector, base, and emitter terminals are in the same places, or not, on the old and new transistors. The overall package is obviously compatible, but not sure if the terminal location are always the same.
     
  11. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Great help Steve (as allways...!)

    Keep you posted...

    Gr from Mel in NL (Europe)
     
  12. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #12 Melvok, Jul 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Started today................

    Found the white connector under the dash and found the spot where the powertransistor is inside the airco unit.

    Then decided not get the dash off and not to open the unit but try out a powertransistor outside the airco instead...

    Got a heat sink (also $ 2,00) for the transistor and started reading all documentation...

    Solderd a bit an will try this one tomorrow (I hope :-0) )

    Keep you posted.....
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  13. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #13 Melvok, Jul 16, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2010
    When on LOW, the powertransistor + heatsink gets very hot, when on FULL, it stays cold...

    The electric fan regulator is now working as it should again !

    Thanx very much Steve ... !!


    Now please back to the second problem (also described above):

    In the co-drivers place the airco airflow can be changed with the switch 26 (first above diagram):
    you can hear a little motor (actuator) changing opening of the airflow .....

    In the drivers position, no sound of a motor; the the left outlet near the pedal stays open and will not change..(also the leds...)

    Any more suggestions...?
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Glad to hear that you got it working again (and at a reasonable price). I can't fault the designers, as mounting the power transistor in the outlet airstream is about the best you can do for cooling it. I doubt that your finned heatsink in a convection situation (no forced airflow) will work as well as the stock arrangement, but if you only use very low speeds, or full speed, it might be OK (and if it blows up again your cost to fix will be low). The stock mounting location PLUS your finned heatsink would be best ;).

    This is harder. If you've confirmed that the flap is stuck in the wide open position, that's a good sign for the LED display (i.e., it is correctly describing the flap's position). Don't know if you can get to the connections, but the next step IMO would be to measure the voltage at the flap motor itself when commanding it to move to determine if: 1) the electrics are working, but something is wrong with the motor/mechanism, or 2) if the electrics aren't working. The only other thing I can think of is to give the flap a little gentle mechanical help to close while commanding the motor to close it -- if you are uber-lucky it might just be stuck. Sorry I can't be more specific, but you are in unchartered waters -- please let us know how it works out.
     
  15. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #15 Melvok, Jul 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanx Steve, my powertransistor will be cooled more than you think...

    Firtsly, I thought I had a good idea (looked so) by mounting it at the footrest plate (great for cooling) I forgot it will get earth(ing)... so this did not work
    I then mounted it on an insulated 1mm thick steel plate of 15 cm x 4 cm as cooler also...hope this works!
    Anyway, I can reach that spot in one minute.

    I have no problem to leave the airco on full in my compartment, forging the motor... I don't want to...

    So I will only start measuring and then get back to you...

    Gr from Mel in NL
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  16. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #16 Melvok, Jul 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Found a nice photo of the 512TR dash-out, originally posted here somwhere by our F friend Jimbo !

    You can see the two rivets on the airco body... there is the powertransistor fixed inside...!

    That's why I did not put the new one in the same spot... :-0)
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  17. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido F1 Rookie
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    Mondial has the same switch and transistor configuration. My ventilator also worked only at max. speed. Find out it whas a blown fuse on the switch. Transistor is placed in the same place on the blower outlet.

    Guido
     
  18. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #18 Melvok, Jul 31, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2010
    What fuse...? Where was it ?

    In my case, replacement of this simple transistor made did the trick: it now works great !
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The early fan speed control ECUs (circa 1988 and before) had a 1A fuse that would also disable the variable speed operation if blown -- later units, like yours (thankfully ;)), don't have it.
     
  20. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido F1 Rookie
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  21. GreigM

    GreigM Rookie

    Jun 18, 2007
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    Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but wonder if I could get your opinion on a related topic.
    The blower fan on my car doesn't switch off - with the fan control dial turned all the way to click off and the main A/C Stop button pressed the fan still runs at a fairly high speed all the time (with ignition on).

    Reading this thread makes me think it could be the power transistor which troubled Melvok - does this sound like suitable symptoms?
     
  22. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    It looks like that .... open up the console between the seats and disconnect the switch as a first check ...

    Do make pics and show us how you solved your problem please ! (maybe ours one day too)
     
  23. GreigM

    GreigM Rookie

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    So I opened up the center console and had a look at the blower control. Underneath the fan speed control is this:
    [​IMG]
    Note I don't see any fuse on the control as in other posts. It has 4 wires going to this connector:
    [​IMG]

    I disconnected the connector and it made no difference - as soon as the key is turned to position 2 the fan comes on (I'd say at around 80% of maximum).

    Other symptoms/findings:
    I tried swapping the air con relay and double checked the fuses - no difference.
    If I switch on the air con to one of the 3 modes, the fan speed control can increase/decrease the fan speed slightly at the top end (between 80% and maximum) - if I hit the stop button it goes back down to the 80% level regardless of the setting on the fan speed control.

    Any thoughts on what to try next?
     
  24. Lloyd

    Lloyd F1 Rookie

    Aug 25, 2001
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    I am having this same problem along with a seperate issue with the AC blower I will post seperately.

    Does anyone have any particular heat sinks that they can recommend to use to mount the transister? I plan on mounting it in a more convenient location.
     
  25. GreigM

    GreigM Rookie

    Jun 18, 2007
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    Hamilton, Scotland
    To add a bit more information to my situation. The fault developed while at the dealers for a cambelt change (so engine out, aircon regassed etc) - is there anything in the electrics which could have been reconnected wrongly? I'm not sure how the blower control would relate to the compressor etc in the engine bay, but a shot in the dark here....
     

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