308 GTB racing alignment advice | FerrariChat

308 GTB racing alignment advice

Discussion in '308/328' started by damusto, Sep 28, 2013.

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  1. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    Hi Guys,
    I wonder, if we have someone with racing experience here ?

    I d'like to know what I can/should set with stock suspension parts in the first place.
    And by that I mean how much negative camber can I get playing with stock shims mechanism.
    Same story with toe, I wonder is it really good idea to hew toe-in on both axes as stock car have. But also what is real range of front toe adjustment, before I will mess my steering with those rods length.

    And second could You please recommend a purchase of any useful parts or maybe some complete package ?

    The car is completely stock now, but I'm going to try some hill-climbing soon.
     
  2. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2008
    3,275
    Netherlands
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    Steven
    Look in the sticky with technical advise/diy for it, all the answers
    ( sorry couldn't copy the link)
     
  3. pma1010

    pma1010 F1 Rookie

    Jul 21, 2002
    2,559
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    Philip
    I used to track my 308 quite a bit. You'll have to modify the chassis (a-arm) forks to get any meaningful negative camber.

    QV London used to support several guys racing 308s and won quite a bit in their Maranello days. Worth contacting them.
     
  4. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    Thanks for quick reply.
    Steven I'm not sure what You mean, I tried to search the forum but somehow I couldn't find any directions for 308.

    Philip, could You could please write more about your setup ?
    I wonder what can I squeeze from stock parts compared to what will be needed.
    If it will be possible, I would like to remain with the original parts.

    However I'm thinking about balanced tuning You know. So when I will tune engine power up, I will look for deeper suspension modifications. But on the other hand, if it turns out that I will not exceeded even -0.5 on front camber without modification, I'll just have to start from this - and whats more at this point already.
     
  5. myronx19

    myronx19 Formula Junior

    May 27, 2012
    653
    Toronto, ON Canada
    Full Name:
    Myron Samila
    Hmm, before you go for more negative camber, buy yourself a tire pyrometer. It'll give you a better indication to what you need at each corner, as each side might be slightly different from the other.

    Excessive negative camber can have adverse effects on straight line braking.

    Can't comment on a 308 alignment spec, but on my X1/9 race car, I ran zero toe up front and just a hairat the back - just to aid it in the straights and braking.


    Are you new to being on the track? If so.. Learn to go fast with what you have, once you can't get any faster and you're at the limit, then do modifications where necessary.


    But by all means, get yourself a piercing type pyrometer, or at the very least an IR temp gauge (those only measure surface temps though). Measure inner, middle and outer of the tread and if the temps are quite hot on the outsides, well then you'll need more negative camber. Of course, that's a very simplified answer... There are some great books on suspension design and considerations for prepping race cars.

    Cheers
     
  6. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    Thanks mate, I'm not beginner on track, however I use to drive different cars (Escort mk2, Ae86) so we are talking about quite different characteristic, You know weight distribution etc.
    Anyway now I have (+) on front and I believe I need increase (-) on rear and switch front to (-) to. In simplified of course.
     
  7. st@ven

    st@ven F1 Rookie

    Aug 4, 2008
    3,275
    Netherlands
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    Steven
    The third " sticky thread" when you enter the 308/328 section is called interesting technical/DIY threads. Open this en look for a thread " go fast" suspension setup from member " luckydynes"
    Maybe a moderator can add the link
     
  8. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
  9. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    OK I analyzed all indicated materials, at least I think so.
    However I didn't I found what I was looking for. So I decided to write a bit more about what I need.
    As I mentioned before I use to drive mk2 Escort I should add it was Gr.4 car, and Corolla ae86 in Gr.A specification.
    I'm used to their specific 850-900 kg ~52%pn front, 170-180hp from 1,6l and 285-290hp from 2l, 60-75% LSD. We're talking about oversteering cars with tendency to powersliding or even drifting.
    When 308 is rather understeer, it "drifts" widely all 4 wheels. Usually there is no enough space for that while climbing.
    So I'm looking for a way to change this characteristics, to do it sharper.
    I know already that I have to lengthen the forks to get negative, the question is how much, or how much - will I need to do so, then I will calculate how long the forks should be.
     
  10. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,171
    Atlanta
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    John!
    Besides what's already been added, I can say that once the suspension has been stiffened up a good bit with springs and adjustable shocks that it has been recommended by a great authority on setting up 308s to only alter the rear sway bar and to leave the front alone.
     
  11. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    I spoke with several 911 owners. They are reaching even -3,5 on rear axles and -2,8 on front. This is for Gr.4 cars on semi slick tires.
    I'm wondering will I ever need that much - ?
    Could You a hint something more ?
     
  12. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    My 2c-
    I put Hoosier DOTs (slicks with 3 grooves) on my Lotus Motorsport Elise racecar and I recall my mechanic saying the tire design somewhat obviates the need to crank on neg camber. Try this prior to drastic mods. Using my super high tech pyromiter (palm of hand on tire), the heat was even across the tire. Over/understeer can be fine tuned via tire pressures. If initial corner turn in is sluggish, dial out front toe in.
    Good luck-
    Matthew
     
  13. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    Yeah, I suspected that toe-in on both axes is not so good idea.
    Thanks Matthew, this is a good tip.
    And it seems that I have possibility to control front toe a lot without having modify any parts.
    I have this -2.5 rear, -2.3 front tip from Luckydynes and his "go fast" thread.
    And this mean need to modify the front forks, I'm not sure how about rear ?

    So my plan is to perform forks with screws with appropriate length so I will get all camber range I will ever need.
    But I have to calculate steel strength, maybe it will make no sense, maybe I have to do whole lower arm ?
     
  14. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    If it were me, I would start with the rolling stock (wheels tires) that will be used for racing. You build the chassis around the tires (size, camber requirements, alignment, etc). Then drive it a lot with stock chassis to get a baseline of where the car is and where it needs to go, as well as being very familiar with the car. Then if you change anything, do only one change at time, assess as needed.
     
  15. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,844
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
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    Steve W.
    From my experience, the major weakness of the 308 for racing is the brakes. They are more than adequate for the street, but for the track, they are not enough, especially if you are very aggressive. If you are staying stock, definitely get stainless braided brake lines, and upgrade your pads from stock street pads to a better compound. Also, make sure you don't have drilled rotors. Flat stock vented work well. If you are serious about tracking the car and driving hard, consider upgrading the brakes to a big brake kit.
     
  16. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    Ok thanks for advice Guys.

    Now brakes - this is deadly serious matter, so FasterIsBetter could You please give more details ?
    I have stock rotors, I have stainless braided lines already.
    What is the problem with pads, wear or fade due to temperature ?
    I didn't noticed anything alarming during hard street use/tests.

    The truth is that usually I'm racing uphill, however there are downhill stages too.
    And then it can be a serious or deadly serious problem.

    Seems to me that, for now, I don't need stronger brakes, provided that these will not lose their properties to much.

    And anyway I must ask again, do You know what is the full range of camber adjustment for the rear axle on OEM forks ?
     
  17. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,171
    Atlanta
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    John!
    If you're not using them too terribly much and your car is lightened a bit then I believe the stock brakes with Porterfield pads (these pads actually make a nice difference) and Motul brake fluid works well. Just make sure your fluid is a good quality fluid like Motul or ATE Super blue
     
  18. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    OK so is that more fluid boiling, or pads itself problem ?
    I'm one of those drivers who solve most of their problems with gas pedal, I don't use brakes a lot.
     
  19. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
    17,171
    Atlanta
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    John!
    If you're going to leave them stock, I would say it's best to do both. Cheap brake fluid always lets go when pushed on a circuit. It's not one of those things I would take a chance on personally. If your brakes never get too hot and you're not running any circuits which have intense braking then don't worry about it.
     
  20. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,844
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
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    Steve W.
    You want a pad with more "bite" on it than the stock pads, IMHO. I tracked my 308 a few times, including up at Watkins Glen. The stock pads are okay, but tend to fade after a while. I changed to Porterfield R4-S pads that I got from Ricambi America and they worked well on the track. The stock pads will wear too quickly. The Porterfields held up much better and did not tend to fade. You might also want to look at some of the more serious racing pads if you are finding that the Porterfields are not enough for you.

    As for brake fluid, I always changed the fluid and bled the brakes before each track event. I know that's probably overkill, but I did not want to be looking at a wall with the brake pedal to the floor saying "gee, I should have bled the brakes." I used ATE Super Blue, which may not be available in the US anymore. But ATE Amber 200 is the same fluid, just not blue. It's a great, reasonably priced racing fluid. Motul 600 is good, as is Wilwood racing fluid, or any of the more expensive brands. But you don't need expensive, the ATE is fine. Bleed all four wheels, rears first, fronts last.

    Oh, and don't forget to hand torque your lug nuts, 75 lbs/ft. And check them when you get out to the track.
     
  21. Omnivore

    Omnivore Formula Junior

    Jun 3, 2011
    436
    Portland
    Full Name:
    Matthew F
    Brake cooling is basic for track use. Ducting should force cool air directly onto the brakes. Removing front turn signals or other opening would work. 911s use a kit (AJR) with a scoop and duct under the rotors. Not sure what's available for 308s. Check on the tracking forum.
     
  22. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
    Thanks for all additional tips.

    Yes I assume so, however during hillclimbs, there may be a problem with brakes warm up.
    The worst scenario is when you gain peak almost without braking, and then in the end, it is really hard braking and rebound. Typical Racing pads may be too cold for this.
    That's why I try to keep common sense. From what I know the factory pads have a coefficient of friction ~0,3 it isn't a world record thats true.
    I would like to get somewhere their thermal specifications but for now I don't have one. So I have no reference point. But almost certainly I will end up with something around 0,46
     
  23. FasterIsBetter

    FasterIsBetter F1 Veteran

    Jul 22, 2004
    5,844
    NoNJ/Jupiter FL
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    Steve W.
    Okay, didn't realize we were talking hillclimbs. The Porterfield R4-S pads would be good for you, IMHO. They have strong initial braking when cold and don't require "warming up" like real racing compounds do. Just be sure to follow proper procedures for bedding the pads when you install new ones and you should have good solid braking with the R4-S, even when cold, in my experience.
     
  24. damusto

    damusto Karting

    Jul 27, 2011
    71
  25. luckydynes

    luckydynes F1 Rookie

    Jan 25, 2004
    3,930
    CA and OR
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    pit bull
    I rambled about this in another thread somewhere.

    There's a mountain in my neck of the woods where I go play with some street bike guys. On the decent about half way down I would start experiencing brake fade.

    I put thermocouples in my pads, heat stickers on the calipers, heat indicating paint on the rotors and brake ducts that weren't that trick but supplying some air. I found the main problem was caused by the calipers sticking. I'd rebuilt them with some seals that did not like whatever I was doing. Rebuilt them again with ATE seal kit and was able to power down the mountain at full bore. I'm running the full race Porterfields R4 not the R4s but according to the temps I was seeing the R4s probably would've been ok.

    Then, when I hadn't been on the mountain for I don't know 3 months, during the decent I was being nowhere near as aggressive as I was when chasing the bikes and I started experiencing a bit of fade. I was pretty sure this was due to a buildup that had accumulated on the pads due to not getting them hot. Once I gave them a couple good bakes/heat cycles they stopped fading.

    cheers
     

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