RedBull and traction control

Yes I was asking if kers regeneration can be activated even when the brake pedal is not pushed. I gave that as a given.

 

Not correct, nothing to do with the engine. Just need to turn on the charging circuit of the KERS system which surely has absolutely nothing to do with the engines ECU.

Doing this would drop the torque output reaching the wheels, which is how you solve traction issues.

I think you are way over complicating traction control. Pretty simple concept. Wheel spins, reduce torque to that wheel. Now of course using the engine braking ability of KERS does not mean ALL torque to the driven wheels is removed, but reducing the torque to them would help reduce wheel spin not necessarily eliminate it. Definitely make the car easy to get out of corners.

Newey has not stated they are not doing this and as far as I can see from the rules posted here it is not technically illegal.

If the F1 teams are not doing this then they should be testing this concept to see if it helps. Could mean they can tune the petrol engine to be even more peaky and thus more powerful.
Pete

 

You are correct that Newey did not deny this. He said 'I don't think the KERS is the difference' (in their on-track gains) and 'we're always looking for the best way to use KERS'. He also surmised that 'everyone else is doing the same as we are'.

It really does sound like a "head slapper" for other teams, but it's the advantage of being ahead of the curve versus operating on your back foot all the time.

 

You did receive my change of addy card, right?

 

I did but my unicorn couldn't find the address.
Too bad, he's back at work at Red Bull for the weekend.

 

+1

Right now, if my understanding is correct (not always true, as we know ), they're only harvesting brake energy, correct?

This changes next season I believe (?) - I know they'll be able to harvest both heat & kinetic energy (The "MGUH" & "MGUK" in the regs). This moves 'em closer to what you're doing now, right?

+1

But what do you know?...

 

Who wants to do that??? It slows the car down, and wastes fuel. The idea is to recharge the batteries when you DO NOT need power, which is under braking.

 

You've missed entire concept of this topic.

This topic is about traction control. TC works by reducing power to the wheels.

The statement was made by other drivers, Hamilton I think, that the RB is getting on the throttle 20+ meters before anyone else.

So ask yourself what is better 20 meters of acceleration with 90% power and tq that is sticking to the ground or a no acceleration due to waiting to straighten out the car before if can handle 100% power and tq to the ground?

Your correct in the sense that no one would want to charge the KERS full time under acceleration but if you can charge for 20-30 meters out if specific corners you have essentially built a traction assist system with legal components the car is already equipped with.

 

This is why they have an accelerator *pedal* and not a switch....

It's up to the driver to control wheelspin.

I'm sorry, but again, I'm with Florian on this - There's no way they can implement anything (TC wise) worth while using KERS at this level.

They've simply built a better mousetrap IMO.

 

+1

I think solofast had the best explanation. Hats off.

 

From my original comments you can see that we are on a similar thought path. I am simply putting the theory of KERS dragging to aid traction in a manner that might work for this thread. I do not think it could make the difference alone and I think it would be quite rudimentary. You do have to wonder what they are doing however when Newey implies as he did that they are working with KERS in the best ways to gain an advantage.


In the end I believe the exhaust gases creating downforce combined with other updates have made the difference.

 

Mate, we are not saying they rid the car of wheel spin completely but by the KERS system reducing the torque to the driving wheels when wheelspin is detected it is easier for the driver to control.

Really bloody simple. If wheelspin is detected activate KERS charging. Once wheelspin stops turn off KERS charging. Why you think this is impossible I have no idea? ... a ten year old could program this.

It is not 100% traction control but it would help. Think outside the square mate, really
Pete

 

I think that more than detecting wheelspin they have a function of the rear suspensions load.

The bigger the load, the more engine torque can be sent to the wheels in the relevant gear.

 

This explains it pretty well:

Red Bull Racing Possible Tech Advantage - Racing Analysis - Road & Track

 

It offers up pretty much the same "guesses" as us.... Nobody really has a clue!

I also don't like what appears to be shoddy reporting;

AFAIK, no one has protested anything. An official protest is a pretty big deal and I believe Charlie always makes 'em public.

Cheers,
Ian

 

I was not aware of this requirement in the rules. Since the amount of power that can be controlled by the KERS is limited, then that limits how much you can do with the system. If for instance you need to dump more power than 60kw (a very likely requirement given the power of today's F1 car), then the cylinder cutout of up to four cylinders might be activated to further reduce power.

Perhaps they are doing both. Activating the KERS to reduce rear wheel torque, and if that system reaches 60 kw start backing off on cylinders (which produces the distinctive noise part way through the corner).

Staying "under the radar" has always been a key aspect of any racing advantage. If no one can see or hear what you have done to gain an advantage, it's awfully difficult to copy it, and it can remain your advantage. RB is being cryptic because they full well understand that once the cat is out of the bag, any advantage will be gone and they naturally don't want to give it up.

They apparently have a "cylinder cutback" system in the ECU that can deactivate cylinders under specific circumstances and if so, the application of brake and gas at the same time could be used to cut power while maintaining exhaust flow (which is what this whole thing is all about in the end after all).

It would be possible to modulate the system quite accurately if say one cylinder was worth something close to the power of the KERS. In that case if you activate the KERS and then need less power, you cut a cylinder and cut the KERS at the same time, power is the same, and if you need to absorb more power you absorb from the KERS until you are to the point where you need to knock off another cylinder.

In one video that I saw the odd noise that is most likely associated with cylinder cutback came after the car was accelerating for a bit, but in a place where the track might have required a short "lift" of the throttle. But at that point in the track, lifting the throttle would reduce diffuser flow and downforce and that would have been a very bad thing, in particular if you have been accelerating harder than the other drivers (and going faster at this point) because you could put more power down from your enhanced downforce up to that point. If the KERS system became overwhelmed at that point, the required "lift" could have come from cylinder deactivation with minimal impact on downforce.

 

This is all exactly what I hypothesized would be taking place next year with the new ERS system. Clever maps and electric motors acting as TC devices will win races. There is no way to control this as I see it now. Someone will think of some way I'm sure.

 

I think we're in for a weird 2014. I have no idea who will be at the front.

But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let it be anyone but ****ing Red Bull.

 

+1 let's see Seb be a humble loser

 

Not sure when this dominance will end; Newey did not travel to japan; staying back to work on the 2014 car. In the other link I posted he's working 4 out of 5 days a week on the new car...


Kevin

 

When there's even the slightest hint of rule bending the teams run screaming to the press and send angry notes to Paris.
Since there hasn't been a peep I suspect that they know that the RB is legit.

 

Saw you struggling a bit with the concept and thought that could help

 

Newey can work RB10 all he wants, but he still cannot control what the engine will be. Which none of us really know yet other than conjecture that Renault aren't on top of it as others.

 

The engine isn't the end all be all in F1, the order is aerodynamics > Chassis > Engine.

I seriously doubt the engines will be *that* different from each other. Whilst I have no doubt the merc engine will be king, Ferrari and Renault can't be that far behind in the end.

 

I forget who it was who stated 2014 is going to see aero possibly being second in line to engines, or equal.


My condolences for your friend Bas.