512tr broken diff !

Lol - I agree with the unicorn analogy and the handful of problems hardly constitute a majority or even a plurality. There is just too much talk of "near term - when" by a few active posters...the gloom and doom talk should stay in the slight "possibility" realm/category along with blown engines and transmissions instead of the unsupportable definitive category.

 

easiest way first to check if the diff housing is broken or not:
take the car on a lift, put in any gear, and rotate one rear wheel. if you can rotate easy and the other wheel is turning the other side ( so one is going forward, the other backward ) then you know that the diff housing is broken and it is getitng time to change before more will get damaged. but when it is hard or nearly impossible to rotate one wheel then the diffhousing could be still ok, but not sure

 

Just came back from looking at a car ( not a TR) at a shop yesterday. There was a TR in for a major service. No sign of anything wrong with diff. When changing the gear oil they found some particles and it led to checking further - taking apart the entire trans. The diff is cracked and 1st gear is missing a part of the tooth.

They have been looking for 2 months for a gear can't find one. Ferrari does not make them and the gears are cut in a special size so, a machinist would need a 1300.00 die to cut one gear.

 

From another angle(if I may)

The majority of 'active' posters on this forum appear to be hands on, knowledgeable individuals with history of oil under their fingernails way before they were able to afford a car the calibre of a Ferrari.
The majority of owners are drivers/ lovers of the marque with little desire of being cognicent of the goings-on with any reciprocating mass thingamy. As such, there is possibly a lot of TR/Boxers with upgraded diffs fitted during a service inspection;as my car was one of them!

I have the complete SH of my car during the possesion of the 1st owner, and it is interesting reading; a 65mm thick pile of individual service records from Continental.

The last record was June '98, being apost track meet mechanical and check oil leak from LHS diff seal; 3 wks later the car had had another major and a new diff with all documented records from the tech(I have the originals from Continental, the service manager was the tech on this car back then) I was assuming that he had got the car back to spec as he was trading it for the F40 and had racked some serious track miles on the TR....but reading deeper, this car had so much money spent on it in his 10 yr ownership, he was seeing the F40 as an option after he footed the bill for the diff and major.

I would imagine that there are a lot of owners out there that just want to drive the cars and they know they are expensive, so the diff statistics would be hard to document with any certainty other than the tales that emanate on this forum.

I come from a background in precision machining(Toolmaking) and the incidence of failed diffs with fatigue cracks has increased dramatically on both Ferrari forums over he last 2yrs, and this fits with the demographics; being age and stresses on components as well as the manufacturing compromises on the diffs over the years. If the diff did not in fact have 'issues' I am curious as to why the development of the 512M diff was begun towards the end of the flat-12 production (it would have started a lot before 1994 for sure) that is some serious development capital for the end run of a model that has no diff issues!

My first realization of the seriousnes of the diff issue was 3 mnths into my ownership, in 2011; seeing the damage caused by the failure of a diff with a WELDED CASING!!! It took some time coming to terms with the reality that this will happen to a lot of these cars if the diff was not nomalised to relieve the stresses from welding; and it could not be normalised due to the gears and output shafts already in there prior to welding it together.

My sphincter went into apoplexy at the comprehension of this fact, and has only recently settled down after confirmation that the diff installed on the last major service was a 512M!

I have the utmost respect for the determined individuals on this forum that take the brickbats of derision whilst they pursue a vision to perpetuate the availability of parts for these cars; at a price that is absolutely outstanding for the quality of workmanship exhibited. Kudo's gentlemen, keep up the good work; your calling was never to be a swimmer in that Egytian river.

 

Two or three kits are indeed now available Bo ... read all aubout exchanging a diff here: remember, it's only my own story ! http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/343161-512tr-gearbox-problem-3.html


Figures are also not accurate because lots of TR drivers are too shy to tell ... people may see them a s bad drivers ...

That's my experience over the past years ... silly isn't it ?

And it has absolutely nothing to do with their driving imo ...

 

Whatever the stats, we know this is a weak link. Even if the failure is only 10% that may mean we have seen early/mileage related failures, as time and mileage go up there will be more. Maybe you are lucky and your car wont blow, or maybe it will. My guess is with time they all will, some at 30k miles some at 100k miles.

I think on boxers it was easier because the tires had such poor grip that there was much less stress on the diff.

Add 400lbs weight on a Tr and grippier rubber and clearly things get worse. Track a car and its just a matter of when not if. Look at the BBLM program, the weak link was the diff and tranny.

In any event yes changing the carrier is insurnace. If I told you that you had a 1 in 10 chance of doing 15-20k worth of damage to your car, would you insure that for $3500 for life. My guess is if you are keeping the car then yes.

There are lotyts of things we can do to these cars today to make them more bullet proof. Modern ignition is one, ac upgrades another and a Diff carrier seems like a plan.

 

DEJA FEAKIN' VU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just finished mine. It looked EXACTLY like yours with EXACTLY the same mileage.

You got a lot of help here if you need it. I had to tear my entire gear box down.

I get more P.O'd at Ferrari every time I see this!!!!

 

Take it from someone who knew their car like the back of their hand and knows it even better now.

There was NO SIGN OF IMPENDING FAILURE!! I shifted into second and KABOOM!!! It was a grenade just waiting to go off. This is a weld failure folks, It's not like something that is going to wear out over time. It just snaps! There will rarely be any warning. If you catch it between welded and broken, THAT's like winning the lottery!

I don't care if you all want to crunch numbers, just look at the failed welds! Look at my weld! Look at all the other welds! That's where they ALL break! If you have a welded one, it WILL break eventually.

So why haven't more broken?? Because they are low mileage garage queens. As soon as the car trickles down to the teenager in the family or sold off to a less privileged lead foot like me, they will survive. But trust me, they will ALL fail eventually.

GIVE ME YOUR WELDED DIFF TR/BOXER AND I WILL BREAK IT IN 30K MILES OR LESS! GUARANTEED!

 

Ah, yes, the flat 12 equivalent of the cambelt thread. One of my UK buddies changed his carrier after I mentioned the problem and the fact I would not restore a Boxer without changing the carrier. After further research, he agreed and bought, I believe, one of Paul's units.

 

Bazzis,
Sorry to hear about your diff, but I'm very glad there wasn't any other damage!
Would you mind sharing your gearbox number? And would you mind confirming that you have the early welded diff, and that's where it broke (i.e., at the weld)?

 

have already posted photos of my diff, it did break at the weld, luckily still held together ! dont know the gearbox no, the car is early , no ABS, and had done 33k miles......

 

Bazzis, how many owners has it had? I know you only need one bad one, but I wonder if there is any sort of correlation between a the number of owners and diff issues. Maybe cars that have had more short term owners (usually the ones driving them the way they think one should, as riffledriver says...) are more prone to diff troubles? Just a thought (and a not so bulletproof one I know).

 

It may just happen to you one unexpected day Christophe ... but let's hope it will not ...

 

Since I'm not too good with a computer or I would do it. Like to see a compilation of Scott,Romano, and Newman's replacement of the diff. I plan to change mine at the next major.



Ago

 

whats the cost if there is a catastrophic failure

 

Lets look at the positive side of things for a change. With all these TR's getting new diffs buying one in the future will mean one less thing to worry about. It seems like at this point, there may very well be more TR's with upgraded diffs then without.

I have 7 or 8 under my belt with 2 waiting for funds to be repaired. Newman, Brian, and those on this forum who have done the upgrade, never minds the ones we don't know about..it looks like a positive for potential buyers. But it is a hit to the wallet for those who have to repair it for the next owner..which is a bummer.

 

when you let it do: material and labor 20k € and more

I only payed for the CP around 10k € for making, plus the diff, plus all bearings, may be plus some gears - and plus labor

 

That's Euro's Romano .... K$30 in US Dollars ?

But even an Enzo makes Donuts ...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2d13mp0YLo]Black Ferrari Enzo Donut - YouTube[/ame]

 

Does anyone have a broken diff they don't want. I have a very good friend that is very well known in the race engine parts manufacturing circles. I would like to show him the part to look at and analyze, have him pass it on to his buddies to analyze and see if they can make them in a low run quantity at a great price. I have mentioned this problem with diffs to him about 6 months ago and just forgot about it. So you know, these are not guys with a lathe in the back room of a 500 sq ft shop.

These are guys whose parts are used in Nascar, drag, race Alfas, Porsches etc. As an example, at the Texas NASCAR race on Nov 3rd, the 1st (Jimmie Johnson) and 2nd place (Earnhardt) cars used engine parts manufacturered by them. The 2013 Top Fuel Hydro Champion "Problem Child" used an engine part to win two weeks ago. These guys know torque. Let me know.....Am I correct in the diff part itself is currently around $2,000 each?

 

Already there are some pretty good alternatives for the Diffs: Newman's and Forza's (Philwozza).

Fairly easy to get and perfect to fit; even better (life-time warranty) and much cheaper than the absolutely unreliable oem versions (if ever for sale).

You only need very skilled gearboxbuilders to do that trick ... those guys are rare, believe me...

 

I have dealt with low production custom made diffs for other projects, most recently a 1300hp streamliner for Bonneville. In my opinion after having installed a few, Pauls diff is the fix.

After what we paid to get an alloy spool made for the streamliner Pauls is reasonably priced, very well made and it fits. The money saved on the labor side alone pays a good sized piece of the purchase price.

 

On my next major services, I will inspect and replace mine.

 

Prices for Pauls' for future reference...is it US $2,000 +/- each?

I just thought I'd bring this up, making them, out of curiousity. You never know if they can if you don't ask. If the top dragsters that pump out almost 8,000 HP at 8,000 RPM (John Force) uses the parts they design and make, I would guess a stressed part made by them for a 390 HP TR would last a lifetime. I would guess they have the various correct alloys in house. I'll leave the torque calculations to the engineers here. BTW---I will most likely change mine out also, but that is 4 years out at least. Just had the major in March, new clutch, engine mounts, tranny checked and sealed.

 

jaguar15:
that sounds nice.
but the main problem instead of the racemachines is the heavy weigth of the TR, nearly double than a racing car.
I made until now very good experiences with diffs from MODENA, australia.

 

my car had 33k miles on it when the diff was found to be broken,I was the second owner , have had the car since 1999 , never abused, never dumped the clutch,always careful about the transmission as I knew of the diff worries. There is just no way of knowing when the diff may fail, just get it changed or worry........