Diff failures in flat 12 Ferrari's

FWIW, as I may have mentioned before, I've spoken to my share of Master certified F-car techs over the last couple of years, both in the dealer network and outside of it regarding this issue. The consensus is that the issue is overblown. The cars they have seen with blown diffs all shared a history of abuse or an unknown history.

That being said, like anything else in life, you have to assess how comfortable you are with the risk.

Nobody will ever fault you for being proactive, however, nobody should look down on those who chose not to be drawn into the Diff paranoia.

 

Well put and exactly my point and personal sentiments on the issue. I was personally concerned just as much as anyone else and had to have my anxiety tempered and calmed with discussions with experienced master F-techs (who have done the repair) and a few other techs who all rightly IMO echoed “anything could fail”, just some have a higher probability and this issue is not an absolute from their assessment.

I seriously doubt anyone is ignoring that there is a legitimate probability it "could" happen or have some serious consequences. The argument and what some of us take issue with is the statements of "it will" happen with “unquestionable catastrophic consequences” when it does happen, which are the key points of argument that are not supported with facts.

At this point in time (>20yrs), miles (>20k), and sketchy maintenance history of some cars we should have a higher trend of far more cars failing if it was an “absolute” and at this point of the cost of ownership curve as mentioned in aother thread it would not be cost effective to repair.

 

For most of the cars out there the real history is unknown so a concern in not unwarranted. The cost of a repair vs a proactive replacement can be monumental so isn't a bad idea but neither changes the fact that the problem has been blown way out of proportion.



Also torque or HP are not the only issues at work. The tire size grew substantially from the skinny XWX's on the 365BB and the diff became the fuse. No different than a great many cars out there. Mustangs and Camaro's have been famous for destroying their diffs for a very long time. The fix is cheap so no one cares.

 

When I had my Boxer, I had already made up my mind and had bought a Newman carrier, to be installed at the next engine out service.
To me, it made more sense to spend less money proactively, than wait and hope it didn't break and cost much more.
In the end, I think each guy has to make up his own mind, consider how much he likes to drive the car and maybe more importantly, how he drives the car. Some guys are content to double clutch and up shift at 3000rpm,,, some aren't...
John

 

So.....Did you end up installing the "proactive course"?....Or just sell the car and let the next guy worry about it?

 

No question Newman, definitely not as cool as the TR, BUT I use the TR as a 70 MPH tops weekend cruiser. The XF is a machine I have no problem doing 130 on a stretch by Cabazon on the way to Palm Desert. Done it a few times with no one around and feel totally safe. Any problems...take it to the dealer. Everything is covered except tires. I would never do that with the single bolt wheel TR. I might throw a rod, blow the tranny, wheel fall off.... All not good for wallet or health.

 

Many of you saw the pictures I posted of the accident and no differential damage. I asked my tech and he has been working TR for years about he differential and he said he has never replaced one on q TR.

Couple of weeks ago, I had the noise at the rear and it turned out to be wheel bearings. I broke a shaft the first month I had owned her and it was because of a welded piece and replaced it with solid.

I do drive her fast when I can, she has seen 180 several times but I never track her or do donuts. I don't drop the clutch or race out of first gear. At the end of the day, if it breaks, I will fixed it. But for now, she has 45,000 happy miles and that is 30,000 miles in 7 years by me. She only had 15,000 when I took her in my arms.

 

No offense Brian, but a while back you were quoted as saying "its not a matter of if, its a matter of when", so being a highly regarded member of the board, I would imagine that, that statement definitely added to the "hysteria".

 

My diff gave way last year and my car gets very well maintained, so it can happen to any car at any time. We were able to rebuild the blown diff for MUCH cheaper than new OEM or the aftermarket options that were available

 

There IS NO hysteria Jay ... only someone called it that way .... ignorance ... not knowing what is going on so it seems ...

 

When was that?

Refresh my memory and the complete quote please.

 

I believe he just did in the post #33 earlier in this thread.

 

Nope - not in that quote...

 

I am 100% sure Brian was misquoted at best.

 

Does anyone here read or understand English?

 

That's not a misquote, it's called illiteracy.

 

And for your information, put me on the list.


I was factory trained on the TR. I have worked on them week in and week out since October 1985 when they were delivered to the US dealers. Have had one for more than 10 years. I was at one time the shop foreman of the largest Ferrari dealer service department and have never worked in a shop that or personally repaired a broken TR diff.


On the other hand I have repaired a number of broken Daytona diffs.

 

Forget to take your meds today Brian??

You need to take a humility lesson from Dave Helms. He impresses me. You don't.

 

I'll get over it.

 

I know here in germany some F dealers.
also I know some very good mechanics with small own garages/shops. but those mechanics have repaired more diffs than the official dealers.
may be because of the horrible price the officials are asking?

 

Indeed correct (of course) Romano .... I had to take the gb tot BB-Motors in Germany to repair it.

It's a one man firm that is not only in my eyes an absolute expert but his hour ratings were 50% of the F dealers..

He has done over 120 TR diffs in the last few years here in region NL / GE .... who here has more experience than this fantastic mechanic ?

Next to that I found out that the oem F dealers in my country agree that they don't have any mechanics any more that can repair these broken gb' s..

They send the gb to Maranello (you pay for that too) and then you may get back a refurbished gb " from the F factory". In fact is was also refurbished NOT in the F factory itsself ...

Price, with no VAT and no shipping is Euro 23.000 --> $ 30.000 !!

Bad news is you get the same bad oem diff that broke in your gb ...

In my case, with new (Forza) diff, new C&P (BB-motors), a new complete first gear set, new bearings, I was happy to have my refurbished gb back for half that money.

But all in all it took 6 months; making of one hand crafted C&P and finding the diff and bearings and a not-worn oem 1st gear set, took that time using my extensive 512TR network ...


Imo is the exchange with the F Factory an absolute NO WAY, but many see no way out and ask F dealers to repair their car ... even that way. Not knowing HOW it was refurbished at all ...

Statitics about all this are NOT available; F dealers also speak " the truth" if they say that they have not refurbished gb's ... but is it ?

 

You guys are aware that Brian operates an independent shop right? As do a few other prominent master
Certified ferrari techs I have spoken with who do not share your position regarding the diffs, right?

Fwiw, one shop claiming to have repaired 120 blown diffs is full of crap. I doubt there is that strong a concentration or TRs in any one area of the world, and even if there were that would mean at least something like 80% had blown their diffs. Was his shop parked next to a drifting course?

Anyway, what is the point of belaboring this thread exactly... We get it... Diffs can blow... What has been said by page 3
Of this thread that hasn't been said in the three other active threads on this issue?

 

Joe ... Friend .... typing words on a keybord seems so simple ....

The firm I mentionned with 120 diff repairs DOES exist in Germany !

All over Europe, people send their broken gb' s to that little one-man firm ... I brought mine personnally ! I was there !

And there are thousands of 365's, TR's, 512TR's (and even broken 512M broken diffs / C&P) over here in Europe ...

So please ... don't write these words without any knowledge ...

 

I think I can sum this up....Diffs break---S@#T happens.

It is not a nimble race car, it is a ton of fun...literally. I have to agree with JoeZaff, unless this guy was next to a drift course or a drag strip, I call BS to those 120 numbers that they gave you Melvok. . There can't be that many in any region to repair 120, unless this guy REQUIRES it at his shop with say...the 30,000 mile service. But, that is NOT "blown" diffs as stated. Having said that, if one wants to do it, do it by all means...No harm/no foul.....Some will/some won't.

Argueing over this pointless. A TR is a special old animal. It has to go to someone familiar with the TR mechanicals if you don't work on it yourself. Before I got the TR, I looked into who would work on the thing WHEN I had a problem I couldn't handle. In no certain order, for what it's worth...Helms, Crall, Tim Stanford, Rod Drew, Murray Bachus. FWIW..FAI (Rod Drew) is great...a no nonsense, no BS git-er-done, git-er-right kind of guy.

A number of these guys say the same thing, the broken diff problem is in the S#@T happens category...I'll go with that, BUT I already have the quote handy for a Modena diff.

 

We are on the same team. I am sorry, I don't doubt you... But I do doubt his claims. Even assuming every tr in Germany went through his shop, at best I would believe he did 120 diff upgrades... But replace 120 broken diffs...sorry, I can't swallow that.

But who really cares what I believe. I am not the diff arbitrator. I am just another guy with a red car.

none of this matters anyway.... We are no closer to a resolution of this diff issue than we were four years ago or more when these threads first started. Can't we all just agree to disagree and move on.

I am the biggest Schmuck of all, I don't know why I keep getting involved in these threads. I keep trying to ignore them and then I find myself drawn in.

Ugh... I will do better not to intervene in the future.

Good luck guys! Whether you have a diff made of billet steel or mayonnaise, life is better with a tr in it.