I think I'm done with Ferrari

Sounds like you're talking about my 550

cheers,

Bill

 

Or my 355.

 

That sums it up. Modern Ferraris are still very nice cars, but apart from sticky plastic the difference between the California and the Merc AMG SL isn't night and day. Thirty years ago I would have laughed if someone suggested the SL was the better choice. Not so much anymore.

 

What cars do you actually own now? I remember you sold off alot of cars, to focus more on the classics? Never ever really found out what you sold and what you acquired and so forth? If you wanna spill it to all of us, that is

 

nah, Bill, my 575

 

I'd love to see Ferrari take a page from Singer Porsche and remake a classic that's all about the sensation of driving feel.

After watching recent reviews for cars like the F12.... I don't need a car that follows the path of higher HP, faster 0-60 times, or outrageous top speeds... the cars have gone beyond being simple driving fun, and become scary fast (never thought I'd say that).

I think Singer Porsche has the right idea, I can have more pure driving pleasure in a light, simple car with 350 - 400hp and less sophisticated electronic suspension components and fewer traction computers and drive by wire components.

Ferrari needs to do a Dino, 308 or 355 retro-mod and I think it would be a huge success to put the emphasis back on simple, old school fun & feel (remember when driving at 80mph felt fast, because the cars where so light, small and dependent on the driver's skills)... vs today's engineering "black magic" that makes a super car easy for anyone to drive.

 

And what you'd end up with, is something like what GM did with the 60's muscle cars.

If you want "old school fun & feel", buy a 89 Carrera. It requires skill to drive "fast", is quite fun to drive and really inexpensive to maintain. Ok, sure - it's a Porsche, but you can take it anywhere and not worry about a thing. BTW, 89 was the last year before they messed it up and re-engineered it into the Carrera 2 and 4.

When I read all this talk about losing interest in Ferraris, I'm starting to think it's a "Low-T" problem. See your doctor, he'll give you some creme to apply twice a day, and it no time at all, you'll be getting that "loving feeling" back.

Just kidding! Just kidding! ;-)

 

building something new, but giving the feel of something old, is counter intuitive to every design/engineering principle. just buy an old car for that old car feel.
ed

 

But it's not Porsche building the Singer cars, it's an enthusiast. The same could be done with Ferrari if there was a market, although there isn't quite the same supply of cheap donor cars. Ferrari must always look to the future and be the best or at least perceived as the best with their latest cars or they will get run over by not just the competition but every manufacturer out there. Old cars are there for people to relive the past. Enzo built his brand into what it is today always looking to evolve and not once in its history has it ever looked to remake the past.

 

The short answer is probably not. Performance from way back in Enzo's time and before has always been about power. Enzo didn't make his name by having a great handling car. He was an engine guy and that is what it has always been about. Unfortunately cars today are so darn fast that that you can't use them to their performance level any place but the track.

It used to be that a good handling car would generate about .8 G on street tires. Now a serious performance car generates well over a G and with high performance street tires is getting close to 1.2 G's. If you leave the road at these higher speeds you are going to travel a really long distance, or have a real sudden stop when you hit something, and the damage is going to be significantly higher. If you have a passenger in a sports car and wring it out on the street a bit he will most likely be car sick from feeling like his brain was trying to come out of his ear. So the bottom line is that you can't really use the performance of a top flight sports car any place other than the track.

So now we have supercars that are blindingly fast but, other than the status that evokes, it's pretty much worthless on the street, and they don't really perform as well as much more pedestrian cars in day to day driving. Lotus makes an outstanding handling car, but they have few takers at what is not really a bad price. The Porsche Boxster and Cayman are great handling cars, and aren't blindingly fast, and folks buy a lot more Corvettes because they are faster, and people don't come up to Boxsters at the mall and ooh and ah and drool all over the car.

If Ferrari made a car that wasn't as fast as we expect an exotic to be it wouldn't sell. It has to be fast enough to be considered valuable or it's going to tank. Cars that were fast and powerful have always been expensive and desirable. If you don't have that capability you don't have a chance in the market. Unfortunately the things that make a car really fast nowadays don't enhance the "driving experience". Things like paddle shfiters, stability control, and really wide tires provide performance, but at the same time the steering becomes numb, the interaction of the transmission and clutch are gone, the car tends to ride poorly since it is so stiff.

Technology marches on, "C'est la vie"...

 

First time i actually read the post kinda funny actually ,.. Ferrari has figured out a way to get all of us to beg to buy there cars then pay full price and to add insult to injury they charge us about 100 times cost for options ,... sure do wish I could get people to do that in my business if i could then maybe I would buy an F12 oh wait I have to wait another year or 2 .... unless I buy a FF then I can go to the top of the list (per my salesman)... seems like a heck of a good marketing plan to me...
and I do think the cars are fun to drive from another overweight 50 something...
You live in las vegas you should run out to spring mountain road course take out your frustrations .....now that would be VERY fun....
LarryH

 

Not quite true. Look at Ducati. Their best selling models are the monsters and hypomotards. these are not their best oerfirming bikes, b ut are ecrtainly their most evaocative and arguably fin riding bikes. They are not retro, but definatly incoprate the feel and style of older bikes in a n very modern idion.

the paginale has the performance, its the halo model that keepos Ducati forfront on the paper races, but the other models sell in larger numbers.

Look at the BMW Nine T that just came out. A fully modern machine techinacly, but also stylish and minimalist like machines from days gone by.

Ferrari would do well to make a pwerful, viceral minimalist machine for those who are into that sort of thing, which is apparently quite a few people. It might also take the barnd image convincingly back into the enthusiast realm, as opposed to the poseur crown. It also would be less expensive to develop, and would not rob sales from the current lineup, or debase the "brand" .

 

The world is not ready for a Ferrari that does not strive to be the best. Yeah some would think it's cool and a few might even buy some cars but it would kill the brand. Now I'll tell you what I would think is a great idea, and that is Ferrari resurrects the Dino name and produces a small curvy Lotus type driving machine at a more comprehendible price. Problem solved. There Ferrari, I will let you use my idea for a small fee or test driving position with the new company!

 

Excellent idea. I would bet that if Ferrari came out with a minimalist car, there would be just as many people complaining about the car lacking this or that. You can't please everyone, and there will always be someone complaining about something. I too would like to see a Dino type car reappear, but you have to wonder if there are enough individuals to support the brand. Look at the struggles that Lotus has selling cars with the minimalist approach. Great and fun cars to drive, but sales are not very good, and even though they improved reliability by utilizing Toyota engines, people complain about that as well. (I seem to remember that Lotus used Ford blocks at one time as well.) In addition, the Dino is a great car, but I don't think the brand lasted very long. (Don't know the reason, but I would guess it was due to sales).

 

Ah, the fog of time....

A little history here... Back when the Dino was introduced it was considered the "red headed step child" of Ferrari's.. Most Ferrari enthusists didn't want one because it wasn't a "real" Ferrari. For that reason sales languished and they killed the brand. Later the Dino became more respectable, but back when it was introduced it was more expensive than a Porsche, but didn't have any better performance (and it had "Italian reliability") and they couldn't give them away... Dino prices were in the sewer for years, only when the V12 cars got scarce and expensive did Dino's gain collectability, credibility and price. Dino's were a great car, but at the time they were a market failure because they didn't have the performance to command a higher price than the competition. If you weren't around then you wouldn't understand, but those who were will remember it well.

Today you might get away with it simply because the Dino is now considered a legitmate Ferrari, but back in the day it wasn't. Bottom line is that bringing out a Dino would be a real crapshoot, a hundred million dollar gamble with no guarantee of success and a high probability that you would fail. I don't think there is any incentive to try.

 

People are a little wiser about what the Dino is today and see the car in a much different light. With a history now looked at fondly by Ferrari enthusiasts a modern Dino would be an instant hit for those wanting a small light back to basics driving machine that is much more affordable. Having Ferrari as its parent company along with the original Dinos history it would have a huge following today. It would probably mean the end of Lotus if the car was a competitor in size and price. It would have to look the part ultimately for it to be a success. I like the idea of Lotus but am at odds with the styling and a Toyota sourced engine. Now if there was a beautiful offering from Dino with an engine designed by Ferrari...

 

So... the biggest problem is the consumer? Do people act like Pavlov's Dog? Needing more HP and newer technology, even if it makes the car less fun to drive on public roads. Perhaps there aren't enough buyers that have the foresight to realize that engineering towards more feel & driver involvement would make future cars more satisfying than the current batch of Black-Box, electronic, nanny cars.

Public roads haven't changed in decades yet exotic cars have leaped forward thanks to the pace of new technologies. Going forward, I see the addition of more electric motors for instant torque, which makes me question why you even need a skilled driver anymore? Rpm's don't matter, shifting doesn't matter, 4 wheel steering puts the car where ever you want it.... where's the skill requirement going to come in for the next generation? (I know, kids who play video games will grow up with fast fingers)

Unfortunately with today's batch of cars targeting the most basic of human evolution... we get what pleases our fragile male egos? Knowing you have the most HP so you can stab the gas pedal for 3 seconds and beat another random driver on a open patch of highway. Could this be more important than a sublime solo-drive on a country back road...in a car that is all about usable power, balance, and feel at 10/10thns ?

Bring back a team of artist instead of technicians in the wind tunnel when it comes to designing beautiful cars, and change the engineers emphasis to feel & sensation instead or power and speed and you'd have a new direction for future growth in automotive enjoyment, instead of building race cars that continue to grow too fast for public roads.

 

I remember the Fiat Dino, precursor to the Ferrari Dino, because my friend bought a nearly new one. The 2L versions were made by Fiat but the 2.4's were entirely assembled at Maranello on the Ferrari production line.

Were those cars a real Ferrari? You could certainly argue that point. But nobody believed it and (especially in the U.S.A.) they were considered by many as a quirky, over-priced FIAT. Everyone knew FIAT means "Fix It Again Tony". Compared with my Porsche 911, my friend's Fiat was considered by our circle of motor heads to be way down on the food chain of "coolness". They're better appreciated now than then, just like the Ferrari Dino, and given the chance to own a Fiat Dino or a late 60's 911, I'd certainly prefer the Fiat these days.

Unlike some, I believe that a new-production, less exotic Ferrari would have appeal these days without damaging the brand. It need not be a race car, just a real nice street car. Something like a modernized 360 Modena. In other words a car available with a manual 6 speed featuring simple but beautiful lines; no wings, no odd vents, no strakes. An engine much like the one in the 360 with chain driven cams making around 400hp would be just fine. That's plenty of power to make most girls squeal and men act like complete idiots on the street. I suspect Ferrari could make a 400hp V-8 these days which would burn less fuel, make fewer emissions, and be less complicated and/or less expensive to build then the unit in my 360 Modena.

A few parts from any Korean car to provide cheap and reliable cruise control, intermediate wipers, electronic climate control, and the other electronic interior niceties we're used to these days would be OK too. If, in addition, Ferrari also used a standard oil filter, oil pressure sender, and other common replaceable parts that you can buy for five bucks as opposed to a hundred bucks, we more common enthusiasts would be happy once the rich guys got tired and passed these cars down to those of us who don't mind changing our own oil.

For those who argue that a reliable, less expensive, moderately powered Ferrari would lack that certain something which makes a Ferrari exciting, I suggest this. A random feature in the ECU would occasionally disable the car. This would happen without warning. Some cars would fail often and others hardly at all. The only way to get the car going again would be to have it trucked to a Ferrari dealer who would reset the ECU for free and charge you $5000 to be donated to your favorite charity. This feature would be proof that you're driving a real Ferrari.

 

I have always loved the Dino. A small example of the mind set back during the time of it's production, in my graduating 1974 high school class of 300, the vote for favorite car was 299 for the Corvette, and 1 for the Dino 246. Guess who.

 

FIAT is already producing exactly such a Ferrari except they're calling it an Alfa Romeo 4C

 

A thrashy 6500 rpm motor lets the 4c down, along with some questionable steering. Ferarrais have always been a bout great motors. Maybe when maserati builds a twin turbo V6 version of the 4c we will see the car we are talking about, and even then i am afraid it will be PDK only..