Alonso is at it again:

Very well put. He is his worst enemy.

 

Defensive? Quite the opposite actually.

Vettel did well to qualify in 1st position at Monza 2008. The race started in a monsoon. They had to do a safety car start so they did a flying start at lap 51/53. Drivers could hardly see past the spray from the car in front. This made it extremely difficult to set up a pass, much less to go fast. Vettel started at the front and led the entire race. He had a clear circuit to take the fastest and safest lines. All the cars were spread out on the course much more than usual. Where the spray was less problematic were in the slow corners but Vettel was way ahead so he was not challenged. He just drove away from everyone. He was already 6 seconds ahead of Kovalainen after 4 laps.

Vettel did drive an excellent race at Monza in 2008 but his victory also had to do with the weather and the fact that the other drivers had to contend with conditions that Vettel didn't have to deal with. He simply wasn't challenged after the start. Vettel drove his own race and the field had to drive a different race, contending with the worst conditions and scrapping with each other. This is why I said it was partly good luck (and partly good driving for the pole, driving clean and fast while leading the field) but Vettel did not have to scrap with the other drivers.

Looks like you're back to the 2012 season again - you forgot to mention that.

You were saying how well Vettel closes a season, remember? You simply had it wrong. Vettel is a great driver but he's human and he made mistakes in the most important race for him in 2012. He was lucky to win the 2012 season.
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+10000000000000000000000000

 

Actually, if you are a jet engine, it is not impossible.

 

This is what I mean...None of those "defending" Vettel ever said that he will beat Alonso in the same car every single race but for some reason the Alonso-Fanboys are constantly repeating this bull**** without any prove for it.
And this is all that is anoying as this is far away from realism or objectivity!
Next is that a car that is on equal pace with Mercedes and Lotus for the second place in the WCC most of the season is called troublesome just because it is not dominating as it did in the Schumacher years. It seems like it is against the imagination of some over here that another car than Ferrari could win the WDC and WCC.
I know that we are here in a Ferrari forum and so it is natural that the tendency is pro-Ferrari and I do not have a problem with it. But I have a problem when people say one (Vettel) is not a sportman but lack every sportsmanship themselves.

 

It's really a personal thing. I have no problem with Seb's celebrations but I remember how much Alonso's bizarre animal gestures after every win annoyed the crap out of me. Others found them cool. To each his own I guess.

 

Same here. His displays of emotion may turn some off but today's F1 needs all the joy it can get.
Whether he's better than the rest will become evident over time. I'm content to wait and see.

 

Agree with all.

Also a big part of being a great driver/athlete is picking and sticking with/believing in your respective team if you feel that they have a chance of making it all the way. Lots looked down on Redbull in the past but V has stayed by them and it paid off. Lots to be said about that kind of loyalty.....

 

In my opinion Alonso is totally correct in what he says. MS could drag a superior car up the grid, we have yet to see if Vettel can do the same, until he finds himself in an inferior car and can turn it into a winner, until that happens I agree with Alonso.

 

This is an interesting complaint from the guy that posted this:

Talk about zero proof.

In my opinion, Alonso usually tells it like it is: For some reason when he (accurately) tells the media what the pace of the car is, he is accused of insulting the team by the F-chat wallbangers. No...in reality he's just telling everyone what the pace of the car is. To say "we're struggling for pace" or "we're 8th on the grid" or "the upgrades haven't worked" or "I wish I had a faster car" is not insulting to the team. These are just facts. Alonso is more forthcoming than Schumacher was in the media, people should get used to that. If the team wants him to talk about Ferrari being a fast car, they should build him a fast car.

It's a fact that in qualifying, the Ferrari was slower than the Red Bull, Mercedes, Lotus and occasionally Sauber. They haven't had a pole position under dry conditions for 3.5 full seasons. It fared a bit better in the race but I put that down to Alonso's skill - his starts are almost always perfect and his race craft is second to none. All you have to do is look at Massa for a reference point, he almost always faded in the race. Was the car better on race pace or was it Alonso? I'm going with Alonso.

As for Alonso's original comment which this thread was based on, I personally don't think he was even intending anything about that to be insulting to Sebastian. He's simply stating that once Vettel has a car that's 4th, 5th or 6th best and is unable to win the WDC with it, the "goldfish memory" sports media will begin to question if his 4 titles were all down to the car. We have already seen it happen with Schumacher, so it's nothing new. The F1 media loves to build drivers up only to tear them down.

Alonso in no way called Vettel average and I haven't seen anyone on this forum call him average, either. If someone has, please point it out, because they are crazy.

IMO, this thread's only purpose was to give Alonso's detractors a forum to rag on him some more. Nothing new.

 

OK, show me interviews of Schumacher with the same statements. Schumacher always spoke of "we are not fast enough", Alonso always says "the car is not fast enough"...You see the difference? Schumacher always identified himself as part of the team and he was working his a** of for them testing when everyone else went to the beach after the races. I do not know how much Alonso is doing at the factory so I can not judge that but from his quotes I always have the impression that he differs between those building the car and himself as a driver. I am tired of repeating myself but we saw at McLaren that he is not the best team-player...

Did he or you ever take into account that he might not be the best qualifier and that he might have problems being fast in just the one lap that counts?
You always think that the qualifying time of the Ferrari show the ability of the car and everything after that is "superhuman" Alonso...I think the pace in the race is actually the pace the car can do and for some reasons neither Ferrari nor Alonso get the perfect setup for qualifying and/or they do a setup more for the race to avoid the mistakes Mercedes did in the beginning of the season: being fast in qualifying and slow in the race.

So what would you call this?

And you posts do not read very different rom this...Let´s face the truth: as long as Alonso and Vettel are not sitting in the same car we will never know who is better and so post like the one above are just "fanboy-talk" without substance.

Just one last thing:

I do not know what you are working, whether you are emloyed or self-employed but I would wonder what your boss would say if you are permanently telling you clients and press that the product you are representing is acually crab even if its right. I wonder how long you would get away with that before they gonna tell you to either shut up or leave...

 

Sorry, but you're wrong. Alonso has said "we are not fast enough" plenty of times. In fact, most of the time. Here are a couple examples of many that a simple Google search turns up:

BBC Sport - European GP: Ferrari's lack of pace is a 'cold shower' - Alonso

Alonso: It?s not been a good enough season, we need to do things better next year | Grand Prix 247

Here he even blames himself:

"I'm not doing good enough", admits Alonso - F1 Fanatic

You're just trying to argue semantics because your argument lacks substance.

Right, you can't. I follow Alonso on Twitter and you can bet he is working his ass off too.

Ah, so no real facts to back up your argument, but just opinion and speculation.

No, because when the car was quick he had no problem putting it on pole in multiple times in 2010 or last year when a wet track took away Red Bull's inherent advantages and leveled the playing field Alonso claimed two poles in the wet. He is an excellent qualifier.

He's not saying Vettel is average, he's just saying that he believes Alonso is better. There's lots of things to back up this claim: Alonso being voted as the best on the grid by actual F1 team bosses, Alonso almost winning the title in 2010 and 2012 despite Vettel having a far superior car, etc. You just turn a blind eye to it because you are obviously not a fan of Alonso.

Again let me direct you to these comments:

How do you know it's not the 4th to 6th fastest car? Pat Fry frequently backs up Alonso's comments on Ferrari's pace. Do you know more than the guys on the pit wall with all the telemetry or even the driver himself? No, you don't.

Do you know for a fact that Alonso is concerned with "making himself look better than he is" or "becoming more famous?" Absolutely not, unless you are good friends with him personally, which I highly doubt.

So much of your argument is based on rampant speculation and clear anti-Alonso sentiment that it is impossible to take you seriously when you criticize others for lacking substance.

 

You say that my opinion is not objectiv, certainly it is subjectiv, that´s why it is "my opinion". In difference you think your opinion is fact and not just here but in every thread and every discussion in this forum. You pick up quotes of xyz you read in the net and think this must be the truth because you read it somewhere, but these quotes are opinions as well and not necessarily facts.
And if someone say that it "would be Alonso every time" than it is far more than just "he thinks that Alonso is better".
You still do not get my point: I have never doubted that Alonso is a good driver but he is not what you are making of him. On the other side I do not believe that Vettel is necessarily the best driver in the field I just say that we can not say for certain as long as they do not drive in the same car. Nothing less and nothing more.
But at least I know that it does not make sense to discuss with you any further because I doubt that you will accept a different opinion as long as you "follow Alonso on Twitter".
So I am out (again) leaving you the last word as for me F1 is not as important as it might be for you anyway...

 

Grasping. At. Straws.

I love how you're content to argue till the cows come home as long as you think you have an argument, but once it gets comprehensively refuted you take your ball and go home, all while trying to portray me as some kind of bully in the process. It's funny. Oh well, I thought it was a good discussion. Better luck next time.

 

Congratulations, you "won a discussion" (at least you think so) but not with arguments but with delingence. You put in quotes you found in google (man you must have time to read all that ****) and expect me to do so ass well to be a "worthy" contender? Do you really think that this all is that important to me that I spend that much time on that?
I feel sorry for you because I think you have been happy that you finally found someone to talk to who does not have yo on "ignore" so you might need to look for someone different. I just have the impression that you are very alone with your opinion here what is very strange as you think it is rather a prooven fact than an opinion.
Maybe I will join in next year when Alonso finally got a second driver that is better than Massa and than we can see at least whether he will be better than Raikkonen in every race but we might need to wait a few more years to say the same thing about Alonso-Vettel. Until then all is just speculation, even you posts although you sell them as facts.
Thank you for the discussion, it teached me a lot and marry X-mas

 

The reason I prefer MotoGP over F1? In F1, it is 80% car and 20% driver. In MotoGP, it is 80% rider and 20% machine. Riders switch teams enough to dispel of many of these arguments and their skills vs the bike soon sort themselves.

 

As this is written in another thread I think it is still worth mentioning here because it is directly relevant for this theme:
http://www.eurosport.fr/formule-1/saison-2014/2014/ferrari-muselle-alonso-sur-twitter_sto4024629/story.shtml
It looks like Ferrari is not amused about the statements of Alonso, it does not seem that they agree with his opinion, otherwise they would not ask him to stop twitting. Exactly what I always said: by constantly reapeating how weak your car is does not help the motivation and the support of your team...Especially as he is not just driver of the team but also ambassador and representive in media of the whole marque that is very much identified with sportive success.

 

I'm afraid I struggle to get excited about bikes, John.

Agreed, Peter.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I imagine that the Emporer wasn't thrilled when it was pointed out he had no clothes.
Don't shoot the messenger.

 

If the messenger would have approached him telling he is lacking clothes it would have been a different story from walking the empire telling everybody that the emporer is naked ;-)

 

Why do we suppose that he didn't go through channels first?

 

Doesn't matter.

Alonso has spent the year telling all who will listen that he over producing and the team is underproducing.

Throws the team under the bus every chance he gets.

Not exactly a team player.

I've never been an Alonso fan. That doesn't mean I don't believe he is one of the best drivers... just not good for the team. I hope he gets skewered by Kimi.

 

I wasn't a big fan of his whining either but now I see his off track comments as an extension of his fierce competitive nature. Settling isn't in his nature. Does this make him a nice guy? No, but we all know where nice guys finish.

As far as being a team player I imagine that the crew like him a lot more than his boss does.

 

^This!

 

You take 5 races and Vettel has beaten Alonso in almost all of them. Did you watch the Brazillian GP 2012 at all? Did you fail to see Webber hitting his teammate? If it was so clearly Vettel's fault for causing ''many drivers'' to not finish, why was he not penalized? Vettel did fantastic to drive back to 6th place, and Alonso once again failed to win the title.

Even taken the 2008 Monza win away, he backed his performance up by driving extremely well in Japan, where he was 3rd but got crashed out due to Hamilton being an idiot. He further backed it up by bagging more 4th places and top 6 finishes, having almost 10x the points of his 4x champcar team mate...

This.