CGT Design Flaw??

Do we have better crash statistics? I see that Jalopnik quoted former Porsche Cars N.A. manager Doug DeMuro as saying "conservative estimates say something like 70 of these are off the road, and they keep severely injuring and killing people," and that Porsche made around 1,270 of them. It would be useful to corroborate the first claim and to compare both figures to those of other supercars.

 

This is true.

On a side note to the general conversation, please do not confuse traction control for stability control. They are two different animals. It seems like some of the stories being told of losing control in a CGT because the "traction control did nothing" are told by people confusing the two technologies.

The CGT is a brutal and pure driving experience. That is the way it should be. The discussion of analog vs digital will go on and surely the digital world is safer. It is also a lot less rewarding.

 

An interesting and informative thread. I find that many of the comments look for a "cause" of the accident but, as in plane crashes, I think there was a series of unfortunate events that led to these two gentlemen losing their lives way too young. For example, sliding sideways in a car is not in and of itself deadly. And the car did not just blow up. Obviously the driver left the road and then hit something that looks like it collided with the gas tank. What are the odds? I think it was just bad luck.

I am of 2 minds on the CGT: on the one hand, if you turn off traction control, DST, PSM, etc on any car at some speed, you will end up with similar handling to a CGT at the limit. It's physics and Porsche did not suspend Newton's laws when they built this car.

On the other hand, why do we find so many CGT driver's emerging with this "you don't understand" type of commentary as if they'd seen a ghost? You don't hear this from F40 and GTO drivers and you certainly see fewer of these crazy crashes.

I was going to buy a CGT but lost my nerve when I realized each owner had been through a serious scare in the car and decided they didn't want to tempt fate again...

 

Yes I see Graham stating that it commands respect. I also see him calling it the top 3 road cars of all time. Never does he say its dangerous to drive on the street. He does mention you should have driving abilities.

May I ask what you mean by "you don't understand" comments?

F40 and gto owners do not drive their cars as most cgt drivers do. I'm not understanding your comparison at all. You don't see crashes with them because 90 plus percent of these cars are driven to cars and coffee only.

 

I'd bet a much larger number of Challenge Stradales of the 1365 made have been totaled than the CGT's.

 

bet your correct.

 

No, they're not pros. Unless somebody else pays you to drive a car, you're not a pro. And that somebody else can't be family or the company you or your family own.

This Rodas guy wasn't a "pro driver" any more than you or I are. We could buy ourselves a ride in the Pirelli world challenge just as easily as he did, and it wouldn't make us a pro driver any more than he was. Go here to enter: Pirelli World Challenge
He was a car enthusiast with money. He had experience, but experience racing does not necessarily equal talent.

Similar to Scott Tucker. He's raced (and won) in a bunch of "pro" series, but he's not a pro. Nobody has paid him to race other than himself or his companies. If he didn't have money, he wouldn't have a ride. Same for Rodas.

 

So as he's been brought up here Graham Rahal isn't a Pro Indy driver?
His dad and his dad's resources fund every nickel.
Andretti the same. Wait in fact almost all racers.



Yes World Challenge is gentlemen racing but be careful with your definitions. You are incorrect on that aspect.

80% of ALMS is self funded individuals racing. That's what the series is about. Larger companies with a great hobby in tow.

 

Great point.

 

Yes, I'd argue there are very few "pro" drivers, just as I'd argue there are very few pro basketball players, pro football players etc. Just because you join a weekend men's basketball league with referees and uniforms doesn't make you a pro. Somebody paying you specifically for your ability to play basketball does - just like racing.

Now, if you own a racing team that you drive for and it is your sole business (or at least a profitable one) and how you make your living, I would consider you a pro. As to Andretti and Rahal, ask yourself if somebody else other than their family would (or has) pay them to drive their car. I believe Rahal drove for Newman/Haas and Ganassi, unsure if he paid for his seat or got paid but sounds like he got paid.

 

I have been biting my lip and really trying not to post but I cant take it any longer .
Once that tragedy of a Jalopnik "article" got quoted I had to get involved .The problem I have with this article is it's sensationalist attitude and the inaccuracies and plain fallacies contained therein .
The Walter Rohrl comments are incomplete and out of context . They were made at a time to increase excitement for a delayed product , the quotes that he was "terrified" and the car "spins it's wheels up to 5th gear" are laughable if not for the serious context in which they are now being used . They were also made BEFORE the car was fitted with traction control , before the final suspension set up was finalised and made after a full on attack lap of the ring in the pouring rain when the car was still in development .

Walter signed off the car and has said many times and in many places he rates the carrera gt as one of , if not the very best car he has ever been involved with .

The Carrera GT is no more dangerous than any other 612 hp car with no stability control . It in no way reacts in the ways some people describe it ( snapping sideways for no reason [THERE IS ALWAYS A REASON], not reacting like other cars etc etc ) . There is so much nonsense written about this car on the www it is very frustrating .

It's funny car enthusiasts berate manufacturers for not having the balls to make true drivers cars , it's interesting that when they do make one it is subjected to this type of internet hysteria .

The carrera gt is a sublime , life affirming driving experience . An unmatched last hurrah for the true analogue Supercar using a genuine formula 1 engine later modified for Le Mans before finally being made road legal and put in the closest chassis to a race car for the road any manufacturer has had the purity of purpose to create .

It absolutely demands respect ( as any 600 plus hp Supercar does ) but is it any more dangerous than a comparable car ?

Absolutely not .There is nothing inherently dangerous about the carrera gt it is only as dangerous as the driver wants it to be . It communicates like no other car I have ever experienced . The thing is the car obeys your every wish ( without an electronic overlord watching over you ). Ask it to accelerate , it does , ask it to slide it will and ask it to crash then yes , you guessed it ; it will . Many drivers are not used to this , they are used to the car doing so much for them they are spoiled . The Carrera GT is a fine tool , a musical instrument , it does only what you tell it to .

 

Interesting observations; this video was just released. Shows the trees/pole being destroyed - I'm no accident investigator - but it looks like the car was moving pretty fast the way the tree/pole were destroyed.....

Paul Walker crash video shows moment of impact | abc7.com

 

I wonder if a parallel could be made with aircraft. An experienced pilot could get in something really maneuverable but unforgiving. One mistake is all it takes.

Has anyone discussed the tires? Big part of the grip equation. Were these poor guys caught out by less grip than they were used to? If so, why? Were they cold, improperly inflated or too hot and overinflated? There has been talk of a blowout. We may never know.

I do know that the CGT is my idea of a perfect sportscar. No first-hand experience though.

 

Yes the tires were discussed in the Thread regarding the crash on this site.

Large discussion regarding them.

 

Allow me to comment on the tyres but NOT the accident please ( I am not an accident investigator and it is unkind of me to speculate on this tragedy ) .

The OEM tyres for the Carrera GT were not very good imho . They were dual compound (soft and hard) apparently to work well in dry and wet conditions . The reality of the situation was that you ended up with a tyre that was not brilliant at either and needed considerable heating up to work properly . It was a compromise .

Another potential problem is the life of these tyres . They were made in batches by Michelin and it was not uncommon to order a new set of tyres and they be 3 or 4 years old ! In my opinion that tyre has already almost gone off . Combine this with cars that rarely get used ( mostly garage queens ) and its safe to assume there are far too many Carrera GT's out there on hard , expired rubber .

I would urge all CGT owners to get the newly N rated Super Sports , they are a far better tyre all round .

Another thing to check if you plan to use the car hard are the droplinks . Many CGT were ordered on the higher droplinks ( for ground clearance etc ) . Put the car back on the lower droplinks , the suspension , aero all work better as well as the cars cog being better noticeably . You only need to do this for "spirited " driving , if its a show car used just for cruising about , I wouldnt bother personally .

 

While you and I are on the exact wave length about all this dribble.

This part of your post is so right on it needed to be quoted.

If the newest 458, Porsche Turbo etc etc didn't have record setting times to 62 or braking from 200 clicks people not only wouldn't talk about them they would dismiss the car as Ferrari, Porsche McLaren etc as losing their game. Losing the race to the best car of all time.

Manuel vs F1 flappy paddles another Laughable conversation on these boards. Everyone wants a car to do sub 3 second to 62 on paper but they also want a Manual tranny to do it.


I hate to break it to everyone. NO ONE CAN DO IT. Flappy paddles and Nannies take everything out of the driving experience that Manufactures need to make the cars fast enough to make "NEWS print" worthy headlines.

They take the driver out of it. He's the weak link. He's the one not capable of superfast speeds to make your neighbors jealous. Let's face it. That's what buying the newest fastest greatest product out of these places is for in 9999 of 10000 instances.

Ferrari realized before Porsche that flappy paddles take driver error out of the equation on fast times to whatever speed. Speed is what most want anyway.

This the irony to your statement. People want true drivers that will do zero to 60 in 1 second.

 

One more thing for those using ben collins ( the stig ) as an example of how bad the car is , I can say its his favourite car of all time :
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkrIi8mNBgU]The Stig's Favourite Cars | Drive.com.au - YouTube[/ame]

 

The same comparison is made in general aviation aircraft....most prominently right now is the Cirrus, specifically the SR22 and it's various versions. I call it the "New Doctor Killer" (the Bonanza V-Tail has carried that designation for a long time). There's nothing wrong with either aircraft, in fact they are both excellent general aviation aircraft, but they are not as forgiving as a Cessna 172. Many people have gotten in over their heads and lost their lives. It happens.


Mark

 

I have never understood this obsession with ridiculous acceleration figures but you are so right mate .

The CGT is not an idiot proof mclaren 12c or 458 ( cars incidentally I am CONVINCED you can never really , completely turn the aids off on) but then again it was never meant to be .
That is not a design flaw its the cars raison detre .

 

I have never driven a CGT or any other 'supercar' for that matter. I do frequently drive a 458, LP560 and 991S. I have done many track days and auto-x, as well as a number of factory driving schools, including Porsche @ Barber. This information is given solely to show I like fast cars, and like track driving, not to suggest I understand the dynamics involved.

Yes, I do drive faster than the speed limit in my cars, and at times I do accelerate hard coming out of turns/lights/etc, that is some of the fun of owning these cars. I see absolutely no reason for any car on the street to be driven to the point that something like this can happen. Driving through what appears to be an industrial park isn't exactly predictable or ideal. I highly doubt that most any car explodes by hitting a pole at 40mph. If the speeds we're talking about are 60/70/80+, can we really say it's the cars fault? Even if something broke, my guess is that the speed was the issue. Going 40/50, something breaks you get slowed down. Maybe still crash, but not like that. Driver died of trauma, not fire, that was a hard hit.

Back to the CGT, my F-in-L test drove one and almost bought it 5 or so yrs ago in Chicago. He loved the car, but his actual comment was it was too powerful for him, and the clutch was stiff. It wouldn't have been as enjoyable for the type of driving he does in his exotics. We like to discuss 5/6/7 10ths, but in reality, a car like a CGT is probably driven at 3/4/5 10ths on the street by the vast majority, and that still feels fast. If someone is driving one at a true 7/10ths of the car's ability, its just a matter of time, either by mistake or unpredictable circumstance (others).

It's unfortunate that these things happen, and sad for all those involved. It isn't anything new, and isn't anything that will stop any time soon. These cars are fast, and most owners aren't that good. Those with some racing experience are frankly probably worse, as their confidence is potentially larger than their talent, and that tends to allow relaxation. In the end, it hurts all of us, as the cars are then looked at as dangerous to the general public.

 

So the V-Tail planes are dangerous? I keep me stuff in a Hangar and 2 of my neighbors have those V-tail planes. They say they are a blast to fly. Am I supposed to say no when they ask me to take a spin with them?

Ok I had to look up Raison Det're
I couldn't agree more. You couldn't get all the gizmos off my Scud without unplugging stuff I'm sure. The newer stuff even more nannyfied.

 

Agree 100%. I'm sure a few people remember Rohrl when he was a competitive driver, he was outstanding. He competed and won in rally, sports cars, and hill climb events, so I highly doubt the man was "terrified" of the Porsche. As Wtdoom says, that was hype.

Why limit it to a Carrera GT? I saw a study in the UK that showed Volvo drivers had among the highest accident rates in the country! Yet NO one is saying Volvos are bad.

I am a lifelong Ferrari guy - never was a Porsche fan. But I can say unequivocally that the Carrera GT is at the top of my list for cars I want to own. I will likely never get the chance, but none of this noise about the car will ever diminish that desire.

 

No I don't think there's anything wrong with the V-Tail at all. I think its a great airplane. It just got the nickname "the doctor killer" because it is a lot of aircraft for new pilots to handle, but new pilots with money gravitated towards them because they use to be top of the class in speed.


Mark

 

Thanks for info. They 2 neighbors so they are fantastic.

I believe both are 25 plus year pilots.

 

Very well put! I agree fully with what you said...

Geno