I think I'm done with Ferrari

You made my point. You're not wrong for selling your 458. It wasn't doing it for you. That's exactly what my comment was all about. One is not wrong for loving the car or not loving it. Its a matter of personal opinion and taste. Again I don't care how many 458s are up for resale. I personally love the car and will keep it until something else strikes my fancy. Additionally, people who buy cars of this caliber tend to change them like a new suit. They get bored with them easily and want to change things up. Again, no problem. I respect yours and anyone else who has their opinion. Just wanted to clarify. Best regards.

 

ah! I had missed that. Curious about your assessment of the Maserati Spyder and why you sold.

 

Very interesting, Bob. I've had a Spyder for a bit over three years, bought of course, 'pre-owned', and have found it a truly marvelous car, in actual 'feel' on the road very close to my 575M Maranello. Beautiful Giugaro design, light, nimble handling, steering accuracy and turn-in are excellent and performance more than 'adequate': 0-100kph 4.8 sec vs 575M @ 4.1, terminal speed 176mph vs 575M @ 201 but you'd be hard-pressed to notice the difference except on a race circuit. And that 4-cam dry-sump engine Ferrari-designed and built in the Ferrari engine plant, blue-printed and assembled by Ferrari engine-builders, one at a time. Hard to beat in today's market for under $40K. Yet I've been considering selling mine - too many cars to drive regularly and garage. How do you like your Corvette?
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90% buy wiuthout a etst drive because they are either sio rich it doesent matter, or they are not buyign for the drivign experience or most probably both reasons.

Once they are out a few years the dealers seem to have used ones from the flippers to try. Luckily I test drove one, because based on the looks and what I thought it was, without a drive I would have bought one, after a drive, maybe if money was irrelevant I might try one, but realisticaly after prior dealer experiences, and objectively based ont he product I decided to spend elsewhere for more driving pleasure. Frankly to me the 458 was not compelling, nor was the Mclaren.

But mayor did you not have two? And the more elemental car you seem to want might imply a stick.

In any event those of us who dont really feel the pull of the newer ferraris are not suggesting ferrari scrap its current model line. Hey its sells to all those who want a lexus like ferrari, we are just aslking for ferrari to make one model that is in the driving and styling experience a modern rendtion in mold of the earleir cars. Which does not mean pooly built, front engined or cantankerous.

If you look at all the recreations and componant cars on the market and being built, cars that cost as much as if not more than anewer ferrari it implies there might be a strong enthusiast market for a more elemental weekend car. This thread seems to indicate the same too.

Its not always about being the fastest on paper. As an old Dicati rider said to me in the 80's, long before ducati became a brand. "its not just how fast you go, but also how you go fast that counts."

Or taking the motorcycle analogy further, I get that Ferrari makes a 4 wheeled testaretta or whatever the lastet ducati superbike is called. Some of us though would also really like the 4 wheeled equivalent of a monster, which by the way is ducatis biggest seller. more useable and fun on the street, trackable in capable hands if not the fastes on track, and one of its lowest on paper performing bikes.

 

So is the Porsche 918. Seems to work well enough to set a new record on the ring. Hybrids work......very, very well.

Personally, I think this thread is really stupid. You buy a new Ferrari which is as refined as any new sports car, then complain that it is too refined. So buy some old POS that you will enjoy more. Progress happens. The cars get faster, better handling, easier to drive, and very, very smooth. Ferrari can sell all they build since that is what people want. Why should they change the way they are headed? Because a handful don't like them?

 

They should change by offering more elemental machines as well as in offering other models in addition to what they do now. Models made of current production bits, just reimagined for driving pleasure as opposed to easeof use and all out performance. If you talk modern cars, then why buy a ferrari at all for the street, a amg merc is going to be justa s fast in pretty much any street suituation ad easier still. So is ferrari justya hey look at me styling job.

The handful you refer too are a core customer group, call them brand ambassodors in modern speak, and because fashion items fall out of fashion with the gilittering class quite qucikly. Look at porche sales collapse in the 80s. And the handful is not a mere handful, its probably a couple of thousand customers per year, and its customers thatw oudl be there not for fashion, or doisplayign wealth, but there to drive always. Look at what is happening to luxury products in China now that ostentation is a negative, You cater to the core because it makes good long term buinsess snese, it keeps yur product rleevant and its a built in core, plus its the base upon which you built your "brand" even if its now mostly a BS "brand"

Why does SRT which does not have barnd BS to fall back on put so much effort into the viper club and do events. Because a customer core for performance vehicles( a core who really drives) is the base upon which you grow all your other models. Same with porche. Loose your core and one day, you wake up and someone ate your lunch as the "crowd" moved on.

But yeah I get it, ferrari is now really just like another watch brand, except they make expensive quatrz watches and some of us want those inferior mecahnical watches, because even though they dont tell the best time, we like the way they are made and we love the way the work. Expensive watches are not bought to tell the time, they are bought for the experience of the whole thing. Most cars are bought as transport. Very few ferraris are bought as transport, they are bought for the experince in ownership, and for some the driving experience is paramount, and here the modern ferrari lacks. That is it in anutshell.

 

Maybe this is true for special models but not for a standard 458, a FF or a F12 with a life cycle of several years. No problem to drive these cars before you make the decision to order one.

 

Hallelujah!

All because there is a minority of people (which may be the majority on this thread) who want Ferrari to make something different does not mean Ferrari is not listening. Ferrari is listening to the larger market which demands moving forward. Based on Ferrari's success, they are listening to the right group.

Ferrari's have always been special cars, not every day cars. They frequently have been purchased as art and as trophies. This is not a new phenomenon.

Most buyers have many cars. Most buyers do not use their Ferraris as their main car. Note that the Mayor loved his 458 Italia, yet he sold it with less than 2000 miles. He WAS acting like Ferrari's target customer.

Why don't you guys get it? You want a product that Ferrari has never intended to make.

Buy a Lotus, a Porsche, an Alph Romeo (boy is that 4c great looking and so sexy!), etc.

Ferrari does not want to change what the BRAND represents. It does not represent a lower price point. It represents modern cutting edge in both performance and style DICTATED by them.

If you don't like it buy something else. They outsell their most direct competitor Lambo which is still not yet profitable 4 to 1.

Ferrari has not changed. You have (you know who you are )

 

It will be interesting to see how you like your C7.

I dunno I test drove a 328 which is what I thought I wanbted and knew it was not for me in a few blocks. Test drove the boxer and there was nothing more to say. Yes you learn a lot with the miles, and a great reveals itself to you more and more with miles, but you can also tell in the first few miles if its a gret. Some vehicles you do need to settle into, but the ones that are just right, its like a hand in a well fitting glove, you can feel it very quickly.

I bet if you got behind the wheel of a Maca F1 you would know in 3 blocks, love or hate. That it would take a lifetime to explore and know it all is another matter.

I have test driven the MP12 3x now, its nice, awesome even, maybe fun for a year or two till the next thing comes along, just not so compelling. Now a few blocks in a carerra Gt and I knew it was a lifetime of greatness, same by the way with the lotus. You dont have to understand it all to get a feel for all that might be there. Wheras my M3 felt muted from the beginning, and years later I have grown into it more, marvel at how good it is, but its still muted. Fine for a everyday machine, not for a 300k weekend ocaasion driving machine. You dont have to go to far to tell, and if you have to go weeks to get it, then you will always find somethign missing as time goes on..

 

I was fortunate enough to have a friend who let me drive his new Italia. I knew the instant I put my foot in it on a curvy mountain road that I had to have one.

After the car was delivered, the more I drove it the more I liked it. the power, the sound, the handling. Just sublime. After 6 months and 12k+ miles I am still in love.

several weeks to evaluate? OK. But you only put 500 miles on your spider. that's the break-in period.

Guessing you made money on the car but really did not drive it much. Doubt if you intended to keep it when you bought it. If not, what changed? You or the car?

 

Our world is spinning faster than before, don't forget that. Needs are changing faster, new needs are quicker created by the industry, all the fights in the different competitive arenas are much more aggressive, products don't have the same sustainability as before, the connection between product and owner will be always weaker, we are living in a consumer society. This is unfortunately also true for the Ferrari-universe.

I can visualize that someone loses the enthusiasm in a product (like a 458) faster than before.

Therefore you should think twice before you make such a big investment.

 

It's great that you love your car enough to put so many miles on it. There are few cars in life that strike a chord enough to just do that.

I knew when I bought my F40 that I was waving goodbye to the money. I knew in 2 seconds that it would be a car I would never sell and I would just drive it, maintain it, fix it, whatever etc. Market value and depreciation be damned. That stuff only matters if you're going to sell it. If you can afford it and you want it, you buy it and you drive it. I'll let my kids worry about all that stuff when I'm dead and buried.

I have yet to find a new car that strikes me in the same way. I do know where The Mayor is coming from. People can criticize him all they want but what he says makes sense for many people, just not all. You're quite lucky that you are the type of customer that Ferrari makes cars for at the moment. I'm glad you're making the most of it.

 

Have to disagree...

Too much GT? I disagree but everybody's different. The Speciale is too much GT?

Poor transparency? It's never been better!

Weak engineering and reliability? It's never been better.

Poor quality control? Never been better.

Over priced options? Always been that way.

Is there room for improvement? Of course. But you are ignoring the strides they HAVE made in all of the objective categories which has contributed to their ENORMOUS success. Business analysts have stated that an independent Ferrari may be worth more than their parent FIAT!

"...People won't dump the cars so quickly from their "bucket list""?

Of course they will. The brand is a "dream". Always has been. Ferrari will INTENTIONALLY keep it that way. It IS what defines the BRAND.

Again... They haven't changed. You have!

 

The impetus for ongoing product development is often (albeit, not only) "the competition" as perceived by the manufacturer, and often the customer.

I notice this in mass-market cars where competition from the bottom end of the market (e.g. Kia) pushes manufacturers above it (e.g. Toyota) to add "value" and "features" to separate its products from those underneath it. Hence, self-dimming rear view mirrors, disc brakes, fancier audio systems, etc. Do these "improvements" make the Toyota a better car? Maybe yes, but some Toyota owners pine for the days when their cars were less complicated, lighter, and less expensive.

However, high-end manufacturers are not immune to this preceived pressure to improve their products. So when the competition raises their standard horsepower from 310 to 325, a company above it raises their standard horsepower engine from 340 to 360. It's a never-ending pissing contest as the companies higher in the food chain provide more content to stave off the manufactures below it. The benefits are that we get cars that are more capable, more comfortable, and more luxurious. The disbenefits are that we get cars that have voluminous, difficult to understand owners manuals, are larger in size, are more complicated, are more costly to maintain and repair, and are usually heavier.

Ferrari follows this path with each succeeding model. But so do most car manufacturers, no matter where they are on the food chain. Would I like a "simpler" Porsche that embodies the best features of older models and less of the negatives of the newer ones? Sure, I would. But they're not going to make it. Taking content, weight, size, and features out of cars is anathema to car companies. Sad, isn't it?

 

Very interesting discussion. Here's what I'm concluding so far:

Ferrari's target market in the past = Steve McQueen
Ferrari's target market today = Justin Bieber

 

I wonder if there would be a market for a 3 pedal lightweight Ferrari with rack and pinion steering, cables for throttle and clutch, no traction control and the various other electonica gizmo whiz bangs etc.? Just the old school basics. Even one with carbs.

 

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This has been an interesting if not a very enlightening discussion. It has been clear from its start that we're not discussing facts, we're talking about opinions, feelings. and that's ok. But some have gotten off track.

A couple of thought are prompted by the above: earlier el Mayor has been venting about feeling, and that's ok, one really can't justifiably argue that. Now he's complaining about specific substance issues: AC ducting problems and software and exhaust changes with the 458. (P.S. I wasn't aware that people rely on air conditioning when driving topless)

But that's not feeling, now you have specific complaints about design and execution. Go back forty years and I can tell you there were innumerable problems with Ferrari's quality control; current Ferraris are immeasurably better made than anything whatsoever that the Company was making at any point in its existence: ten, twenty, thirty or fifty years ago.

As to feeling, you don't need more of anything, you need much less - of everything that every car manufacturer is delivering today - perhaps excepting Lotus and Caterham.

As to the connection to racing, you're correct, they have no connection to the racing of the 1950s or 60s when because of reliability issues in any year 2 or 3 or 5 drivers would die. But no connection to today's racing? You call micro-second paddle shifting and manettino
"fakery"? you disqualify all of your complaints except as they give voice to your feelings.

And as I may have mentioned elsewhere on this thread, I do know the older cars, perhaps better than you, Mayor, having owned and driven a 1967 365GTC for almost thirty years. A fabulous car, indescribably delicious to drive. But she took nothing away from the excellence of the cars that Ferrari, the present-day Ferrari, is designing and producing today.

What can be usefully said on this subject on this thread has already been said. I don't think there's any more here that will interest me.

 

McQueen or Bieber? You be the judge...
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