Where will the 777x be built????

No Jeff,
I am touting that we have the most experience, depth of knowledge AND the BEST FACILITY to get this program off the ground in the limited time this company is promising to the Customer. We are already rolling 777's out every 2.5 days to HAPPY customers.. Why in God's name would any businessman pull up the stakes and start from scratch somewhere else?. A dumb one, that's who.

As I said at the beginning of this thread I am not a big union guy and I have many disagreements with them. If I thought I would be treated FAIRLY and paid accordingly by the company I would NOT belong to the union.

I have seen too many non-union 20+ year veterans get kicked out the door because they didn't "know" the right people or didn't "get along" with their boss , regardless of how hard they worked or what their knowledge base was. We just lost a GREAT electrical engineer this way.

There is absolutely NO logic to locate anywhere else economically or logistically. This entire debacle between Boeing and the Union is to bust the Union, PERIOD. This is Jim McNerney's pet peeve. Simple as that.

 

That's comforting.

 

Actually many of those places do good work. The pay scale is not the determinate for good or bad work. They may be well paid based upon their local economy.

 

+++ 1

 

McNerney is likely to win in the long term and the union is providing more reasons why his path is correct.

Yes, Seattle is a high cost of living place to be (lived there for a couple of years on a BBJ project). Problem is that the aircraft buyer finds that as a Boeing issue and something that justifies more money to be paid by the buyer.

Boeing has to look out at the current and potential marketplace and see that there is more than just competing against Airbus. Airbus operational costs are likely not substantially different than Boeing but being prudent means looking at Embraer, Bombardier and even more so the threat of the Chinese.

How would the union respond to 2 different wage scales based upon working on Renton narrow body or Everett wide body aircraft? I don't expect that concept to work well either yet it is common knowledge that the wide bodies are substantially more profitable that the 737s. There will be a replacement for the 737 at some point and looking at the potential entrants to some of that market makes it only prudent for Boeing to get long term labor cost solutions.

It is in Boeing's corporate self interest to have alternatives to Seattle. They need these singular or plural alternatives if for no other reason than to use as a stick against the Seattle unions. You could be right on each of your points why the Everett plant and workers are better equipped to make the 777X today but it misses the 20 and 30 year picture of where Boeing needs to be positioned. Boeing going to all this effort to have a showdown with the unions and then to capitulate would be really bad move for the company. Don't be too surprised if SPEEA is next on the list.

 

See Huey Lewis -- "I'm taking what they giving 'cause I'm working for a livin'."

Bottom line, unless you're uniquely talented or special. you're cannon fodder. People all over the US work hard and can build great things as was already shown in this thread. And they get paid a lot less. It's just economic reality. If someone feels they are worth more than can always start their own business.



From Boeings perspective, I suspect this is more about being held hostage by the Union and all that goes with it than just the hourly wage.

 

From this weeks Speednews

BOEING is building 230,000 sq ft 787 paint facility at North Charleston to open in mid-2016; all BSC-built 787s are now painted by LEADING EDGE AVIATION SERVICES in Fort Worth, TX. It also acquired access to 468 acres in North Charleston for future growth

 

Previously I have read that Boeing is looking to turn the Charleston location into an area with many of the vendors having adjacent operations. Certainly some of those acres are for that.

Anyone know the Charleston grounds? Is there a problem having a lot more land available for a 777X operation beyond the 468 acres?

Of course another consideration for Boeing would be if they should create another location so that Charleston can never develop the Seattle mentality? The politics of having a supplier base and manufacturing across multiple states is used effectively in military programs.

Jeff

 

One thing to remember is that Boeing didn't choose Charleston, Vought did. Boeing bought Vought's operations concerning the 787 and so inherited much of the site. There was already quite a bit of 787 manufacturing going on there prior to establishing the final assy line. Boeing actually reduced the length of the supply line by putting final assy there.

 

And the flip side to that argument is that a poorly qualified worker or one that decides he doesn't want to pull his weight is protected under the union. We see it down here with Longshoreman, Teamsters, hell even the teachers unions. There are teachers that have clearly violated laws including molestation allegations, but they don't get fired. There's a lengthy (5 years average) process to terminate them and any other teacher. Yeah unions are just as much trouble as a non-union shop.

 

This a great point that was rampant in the UAW that did their fair share in destroying Detroit.

Unions had there Time. Zero reason for them now.

 

And I see that at my current employer quite often. A lot of these guys would not have made it at a non-union shop like Grumman, where the standard of the shop workers was higher, because each knew that he had to "pull his weight" or he'd be out the door. After roughly 18 years in both union and non-union aircraft manufacturing plants, I can tell you that non-union is better.

 

Saw that the national union has forced a new voting by the local members of the slightly revised Boeing offer. National did this over the objections of the local union leadership.

Interesting to see how this vote turns out. Got to believe that there is a severe level of animosity between the local and national at this point. Likely national got the picture that any new location has a zero chance of providing membership for their union and even more likely no union at all.

Jeff

 

All that needs to be done is find some impoverished country with a corrupt government which will give Boeing a lot of $$ to relocate their automated factory there along with plenty of hungry, desperate workers who are willing to work for less than robots cost. Problem solved!

Of course the day will arrive when none of the unemployed workers will be able to afford airline tickets but that won't happen for a few years......we hope.

Always looking for the "most efficient" and "cheapest" way of doing things is at the heart of our problems. Check "The End of Work" by Jeremy Rifkin for more details.

 

You need to understand that engines, while they consist of many very high tolerance parts, aren't really "built" in the places you are referring to.

Yes, they undergo FINAL ASSEMBLY in those locations, but the pieces aren't machined or made there. Engine final assembly, due to the tight tolerances and controlled assembly procedures, can be put together with a workforce that has to be trained, but it's nothing like the training required to actually machine and make those parts.

GE, like P&W and RR don't make many of their own parts anymore. Virtually all of the pieces are manufactured by a supply chain that GE beats on relentlessly to keep their costs low. If you go walking through the GE Evendale plant, the only thing there is a small model shop and assembly areas and test cells (and engineers working in the miserable basement). They don't make anything there anymore, and if it weren't for the engineers working the basement the parking lots would be empty. That plant made the Curtiss Wright engines during the war and it is huge, but now it is mostly an empty shell.

Modern CNC machining equipment makes it possible for smaller, more efficient (and mostly non-union) machine shops to make the pieces for a lower cost than the big companies can with their unionized high overhead labor force, but most of those machining houses are in the Northeast and Midwest because that's where the skilled machinists are. I don't get any bids from machining houses in places where they pay "Walmart" salary levels because there isn't a large highly skilled labor force that's required for that work.

In my experience a key to doing things right the first time is to grow a highly talented and experienced work force. If your workers don't have that experience you need to expect that you won't get the productivity and the quality that you get with experienced workers. GE was trying to make parts in Mexico with newly trained labor and it was a disaster. If you are starting a new factory with highly automated, new technology equipment, then starting from scratch in a new location might make sense, like GE is doing with their nickel casting facility. But Boeing is learning that to make something as complicated as an airliner without a highly trained workforce results in a situation where "you get what you pay for"....

I'm no fan of unions, I've seen first hand how a union can run a company into the ground, but Boeing also has a long history of not treating their workers fairly. Remember their engineers are unionized for a reason too. Boeing also has a history of exploiting loopholes in immigration law and parking foreign nationals (engineers) in facilities just over the border in Canada (because they didn't want to pay US engineers what it would have cost to do the aircraft they were designing), so I don't have a lot of sympathy for them when it comes to labor practices.

 

Not having a lot of faith that the Seattle union recognizes the reality that is in front of them. Sure sounds like they and the old UAW in Detroit have way too much in common.

Jeff

SEATTLE (AP) - Boeing Co. told political leaders in the Puget Sound on Monday that this week's vote by Machinists will determine the fate of some jobs on the new 777X airplane.

Local politicians gathered at a press conference in Everett to discuss the importance of approving the revised contract offer. Boeing executive Ray Conner told the government leaders earlier in the day that an accepted contract will ensure that work on the airplane's wing stays in the Puget Sound, but a vote to reject the deal will ensure the jobs go elsewhere.

Kent Mayor Suzette Cooke says there is no other choice but to vote yes. Otherwise, the politicians warned of a decline in the state's aerospace industry.

"We will see the demise of the economic stimulus that Boeing has provided us," Cooke said.

Boeing spokesman Doug Alder declined to discuss details of the company's conversations with local leaders but said this week will "be the last opportunity for the union to vote prior to Boeing making a decision" on where it will build the 777X.

Local union leaders have opposed the contract because they believe it involves too many concessions, including a plan to shift workers away from traditional pensions. National leaders in International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers have scheduled a vote despite the objections of local officials.

Since the Machinists rejected a contract offer last month, the company has solicited bids from other states. A total of 22 states have submitted offers to secure work on the 777X.

Boeing's warning on Monday focused on the composite wing needed for the 777X. John Lovick, the Snohomish County executive, said Boeing plans to build a 1.2 million square foot building to construct the wing in the Puget Sound if the Machinists approve the latest offer.

The political leaders said the company's warnings didn't address where the fuselage would be built if Machinists reject the offer.

Still, they said the composite wing is a new technology that will be a critical component for airplanes of the future. If that work goes elsewhere, it likely will mean that future airplane production will go where the wings are built, the government leaders said.

"We have an opportunity to either grow the aerospace industry here in Everett ... and here in the state of Washington," said Bob Drewel, former Snohomish County executive, "or, unfortunately and conversely, we will watch that industry shrink in front of us."

Production of Boeing's 777X would likely secure thousands of well-paying jobs to whatever region wins the work. The plane is a new iteration of its strong-selling 777, and the company recently received orders for 225 new 777X planes from three airlines at the Dubai Airshow.

Boeing began offering the 777X in May, but it's still finalizing plans for the plane and aiming to deliver the first aircraft by the end of the decade. Boeing has said it is expected to carry as many as 400 passengers and be more fuel efficient than the current 777.

 

Kinda my philosophy is to never jump into conversations/threads if I don't know the subject or don't know the facts being discussed, I hate to be wrong. It makes life more efficient and easy for everyone. Unfortunately, many people don't share this philosophy, your post being a case in point.


In this video that I already posted it clearly shows GE employess in Mississippi, walmart territory, MAKING one of the most crucial engine parts, the composite fan platform, from scratch INCLUDING milling them down to tight tolerances on a CNC machine. The video completely contradicts your post. GE is expanding is parts making in the US now.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7joyui3A6o]GEnx Aircraft Engine | GE Aviation | Carbon Fiber Composite Materials - YouTube[/ame]

 

Excuse me but I've worked in the gas turbine industry for over 35 years, and some of that time was for GE. I know well how they do business and what their general approach to design and manufacturing is. We use many of the same casting, machining and fabrication suppliers that they use and I have contact with those suppliers on a daily basis. I've been inside the GE factories and continue to have continuous contact with folks who are still there.

I didn’t say GE buys every part of their engines, they make some, but the amount of vertically integrated content in their product is as small as they can make it, by design. That way the do not have to expend capital funds to build facilities and buy equipment, and there is no lingering retirement obligation for employees at subcontractors. They would rather cut the production at a subcontractor when things get slow than pay union labor not to work in event of a layoff. There is always going to be some work that will have to be done in house, but that work is very small in comparison to the entire content of the engine.

GE only brings work back in house when there is a supply chain problem and it is work that they are having a hard time sourcing. That is, if they can't find suppliers, or if those suppliers get so busy that they can't give GE a priority then GE will bring the work in house. For GE to consider bringing work in house it has to be very high technology and something that they can't get anywhere else. Otherwise, the parts are bought from qualified suppliers. Every part is subjected to a rigorous "make/buy" decision process, and unless there are very compelling reasons, the parts are bought rather than made.

What you have highlighted is often referred to in the industry as a “hobby shop” operation. It’s a stand-alone facility that makes a few very specialized pieces using processes or technology that is unique and requires new tooling, processes and totally new training of the manufacturing personnel. Since the entire process and facility is new, you can put it pretty much anywhere and most of these facilities are put in the south due to attractive work rules and the lack of union representation, and the political implications of the location. The number of persons employed in these operations is miniscule, and the fan platform is hardly a critical piece of the engine, it's basically a rotating cover that sits between the fan blades.

In the facility you have shown GE says they will “eventually employ 250", but right now that facility employs a total of 40 employees. In the grand scheme of GE aviation's 17,000 employees it’s a tiny sideshow. The beauty of a composite piece is that it doesn't require much machining, only on the mating surfaces, so in that shop there are probably a total of two skilled machinists, and one machining programmer, hardly a difficult thing to find anywhere in the country, and if they can't find them there they will move in a couple. The part cost and productivity of these operations is pretty dismal, but the engine companies create them because they can’t get the pieces made anywhere else, and for political reasons (more on that later).

All of the “Big Three” engine manufactures have or had some of these small facilities, Rolls had their Single Crystal Operations” casting facility off site and also a manufacturing facility for their high temperature “Lamalloy” material (since closed) and Pratt has a couple of them too. GE also has what they call their “Lean Lab” facility in Delaware (total head count 70) making CMC parts.

These small facilities are trotted out with much fanfare because the companies love to show how they are “creating new jobs” in the USA, even though hiring 40 heads in the sun belt isn't much of anything. The locations for these facilities are also chosen very carefully to curry favor with local politicians who sing from on high as to how they are bringing jobs to their districts and gives them an excuse to cast votes in support of GE in the congress (political support in this country is bought and paid for by jobs, or the illusion of jobs every day). The Rolls Lamalloy facility was located in Evansville solely to gain the support of the congressman in that district. Looking at the number and rank of the politicians attending the opening of the 40 person shop in your video, GE isn’t tone def as to where they put that plant and, based on the slick video produced they know well how to gain the most publicity from what is really a miniscule piece of the business. Look at each of the politicians listed as attending and you will find a press release touting how this 40 person operation is bringing 250 jobs to the district.... I won't be so cynical as to infer that the politics play the major role in how these things come about, but you would be a fool not to see that it plays a big part in what's going on here...

A gas turbine engine has thousands of pieces and because of the high temperatures involved, most of them are made of metal, which are cast and machined by conventional processes. You will note that in your video they are assembling some composite pieces on a metal fan duct that wasn't made in that facility. They didn't make it there because it's a conventional piece that can be made for less someplace else. That makes my point perfectly. For the foreseeable future the vast majority of the metallic parts of turbine engines will continue to be made in the rust belt due to the existing infrastructure and trained workforce there. A couple of plastic pieces made in tiny 40 person facility in the south won't change that fact.

Since you obviously don’t know much about this industry you should perhaps do some research first and learn something before you go cutting and pasting a video clip and casting aspersions as to others knowledge of the subject.

 

Were you completely wrong on what you posted? answer--- YES




Instead of admitting it or keeping quiet you try to give me a lecture on the history of GE. The future is productivity, automation, and technology. GM used to have 770,000 employess in the late 1970's , now they have 70,000 ,less than 10 percent,yet they make more and better cars.



I guess this is just for show too;

GE Aviation breaks ground on Asheville facility
November 14, 2013

--Unique composites facility for the jet propulsion industry
--Represents $125M GE investment in Asheville, NC

--Will employ 340 at full capacity

ASHEVILLE, NC - GE Aviation, a global leader in jet engine and aircraft system production, today hosted a groundbreaking ceremony at the site of its new advanced composites factory near Asheville in Western North Carolina.

GE Aviation's Sanjay Correa, Vice President, Ceramic Matrix Composite (CMC) Program and Mike Kauffman, Senior Executive, Composites Manufacturing were joined by Governor Pat McCrory and officials from the Asheville Area Chamber, Buncombe County, City of Asheville and NC Department of Commerce to commemorate the groundbreaking.

The new 170,000-square-foot facility will be the first in the world to mass produce engine components made of advanced ceramic matrix composite (CMC) materials.

GE will begin hiring at the new CMC components plant in 2014. Within five years, the workforce at the plant is expected to grow to more than 340 people.

 

I'm sorry if you fail to understand very much of what I've said, but nothing I've said was wrong.

You continue to make my case, in particular your comments about GM...

Yes, GM produces more with far fewer employees now than it did in the 70's. But GM cut employees by spinning off entire subdivisions (DELCO, and Saginaw Gear for instance) to reduce their hourly workforce, and concentrate on assembling complete vehicles. Now the same folks work for suppliers, make less, have fewer benefits, and have less job security. Yes, GM produces more with fewer direct employees, but only because the work has been transferred down to the supplier level, where before it was done within GM. GM used to design and make all of the parts in their cars. Now much of the subcomponent engineering, design, analysis and manufacturing has been pushed down to the supplier level. I have a friend who works at a seat supplier and they do all of the mechanical design, force testing, tooling design and then manufacture the seats for GM. Used to be that GM did all of that, now it's the supplier that is doing it. The GM business model now is to concentrate on the added value of assembling cars, and not necessarily on making components that are commodities and can be purchased from suppliers that have a lower inherent employee cost structure.

This is exactly the same business model GE is using to produce turbine engines. Anything that is a commodity and can be bought from suppliers with a lower cost structure is bought.

You keep pointing to these new manufacturing facilities and saying that this is "engine production". This isn't engine production, it's making a few pieces parts and throwing a few bones to the pol's. That's all it is.

In reality these are tiny facilities producing small quantities of parts for one product line and the total number employed when they reach full production is less than 1,000 employees (340 at the new CMC facility and about 500 between the two composite manufacturing facilities in Mississippi), or less about 5% of GE's total workforce somewhere past 2019 when these facilities reach full production. You are pointing at a ground breaking ceremony in November, the facility likely isn't even a shell of a building yet and at full capacity it will only employ 340. The projections for full production and employment at these plants isn't for another 4 to 5 years.

Right now the total number of employees working in these factories is less than 200 and their current production rates are tiny. Right now the content that is coming from these hobby shops is less than 1% of the value of an engine.

Compared with the literally 10's of thousands of employees that make up GE's subcontractor workforce these small manufacturing operations are but a sideshow in the big scheme of things. The $ content of all of these new high tech parts, compared to the rest of the engine, even five years from now when they are at full production making the CMC blading, will be in the range of maybe 3-5% of the total engine cost (and I'm being generous here). That isn't engine production. Call it exactly what is, it's making a small quantity of pieces parts that go into an engine in new facilities.

You keep pointing to these small hobby shop operations and saying this is the future of manufacturing while ignoring the elephant in the room in terms of the millions of dollars of conventionally manufactured hardware that goes into each of these engines. Spend some time in a large manufacturing facility and see how it's really done and you would come to the realization that what you are talking about here is just a few pieces parts in a nice clean, green facility with polyurethane floors and some automated machines. GE and the Pol's point to this and say isn't this grand, but that's just for publicity purposes. Real manufacturing of high temperature parts is a nasty process involving casting, machining, forging and removal of hard metal. In terms of total value of these parts, compared to the rest of the parts of these engines the value of these parts are next to nothing, and it won't even be 10% of the entire engine even if more composite parts are developed over the next 10 years. That's the reality here.

I never said that GE doesn't make some parts and they will always make some parts. However, they currently buy a very large percentage of their parts from qualified suppliers and a handful of parts made in small factories scattered around the south isn't going to change that. They have a manufacturing business model and that model doesn't include vertical integration. You're pointing at a couple of pieces and saying that in the future GE is going to make entire engines in the south from parts that they will make in their own factories and that isn't even close to what is happening.

Time for a reality check here. If you could point to a place in time where any engine manufacturer was even contemplating making even half the parts in an engine in new facilities in the south, I'd be willing to go along with your argument about the "new manufacturing" technology, but that isn't the case now and isn't likely to happen in the 10 years that will make up the rest of my working career.

Get a grip on the scale of what it takes to manufacture an engine and put it all into perspective. Your examples are like saying the nose gear of the 777 is going to be made in a new facility and therefore there is a new manufacturing paradigm for the entire aircraft. That's not even close when you are ignoring who makes, and how the rest of the airplane is made.

 

Seems you have lost track, Your point was this

It's a variation on the theme that Spasso was pushing earlier in the thread, -- THAT only unionized, non-southern tier state workforces can produce a reliable critical piece or product ---- .


That was clearly wrong in this instance, as shown by the production of some of the highest tech parts in the engine in Mississippi and soon in Asheville.


The rest of your post is irrelevant to that point, as interesting as it is. One question though, since you believe these parts are show parts made in factories built for political purposes by inferior workers, does GE throw them in the trash or do they get put into show engines on show planes?



Here is another example of modern productivity, very interesting stuff;

https://youtu.be/l0SXlkrmzyw?t=1m21s

 

uh-oh don't look now, the extremely hi-tech fan blades themselves, are made from scratch by a GE owned company in San Marcos, Texas, a southern right to work state. Very cool video well worth watching.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoNySabChvA]GE90 and GEnx Composite fan blades - YouTube[/ame]

 

Vinny- You are missing Spasso's point, that those small plants do no produce a statistically significant portion of the GE engines.

 

Taz, can we at least keep the people straight, Spasso is griping about Charleston and Boeing, Solo is griping about Miss./NC/Texas and GE.

They are both seem to be trying to justify their own way of life and elevated salaries/benefits vs right to work non-union labor. Which is fine for them to defend but not at the expense of truth or other workers abilities.





##--- I highlighted his POINT -- the inability to make critical hi-tech parts because of a lack of skills, PERIOD! The % issue cropped up when he knew he was wrong.



ALL the composite fan platforms for ALL the GE-NX engines will be made in the Batesville MISS plant. not 5%, not 10%, but 100%.

ALL the Fan Blades are made in that Texas factory. "CFAN Co. is the world's only manufacturer of composite jet engine fan blades that power GE engines for the Boeing 777, 787 and 747-8 airplanes. And business is booming: The company hired 125 additional employees last year, growing the workforce to 521, and expects to hire another 50 this year."

 

Post 65 told us -- "If you go walking through the GE Evendale plant ........... if it weren't for the engineers working the basement the parking lots would be empty"




yet I read this, dated 2 months ago --

"GE Aviation in 2009 received a 15-year Job Retention Tax Credit from the state, and committed to spending $100 million on its Evendale headquarter operations and retain 5,000 jobs. GE Aviation says it met that investment commitment by 2012. The $300 million capital announcement is in addition to that, company officials said"



"GE Aviation employs a total 9,100 workers in the Cincinnati-Dayton region, Case said."



GE Aviation plans more investments in Ohio on technology, research