Metalurgy, Chemistry, Vendors and the asnwer to a slew of threads and questions... | FerrariChat

Metalurgy, Chemistry, Vendors and the asnwer to a slew of threads and questions...

Discussion in '348/355' started by 335s, Jan 5, 2014.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    870
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    As it applies to ALL Ferrri engines manufactured AFTER 1984 in 8 cyl and 1985 in ALL others:

    VALVE GUIDES
    EXHAUST HEADERS FAILURES
    LINER "OVER COOKING"-are they Nikasil, or Alusil-and is there a difference?
    IRREGULAR/EXCESSIVE RING GAP and excessive oil consumption:
    AFTER a VALVE JOB,
    WITH "GOOD" LEAK DOWN
    AND WITH NO MEASUREABLE "BLOW BY"
    BUT THE LINERS "LOOKED" OK/GOOD!!!
    WHATS THE EFFECT OF THE HEADER DETERIORATION?
    PERFORATIONS?
    IF ANY...
    CATALYSIS EFFECTS, AND WHAT IS A Pt COATED ZIRCONIUM DI-POLE ANYWAYS?

    The 2 major designs governing rings and sealing surfaces(essentially irrespective of surface material composition),
    Misconceptions myths and outright untruths regarding replacement parts suitability with an OE application,
    The chemical requirements for suitability of application and fitness for use issues commoinly gone unquestioned or unasked....

    There are, literally, hundreds of of postings as well as pages of postings which are ALL inter related to a fundmental "suite" of questions and their interrelated solutions and answers.
    These are all less about mechanics diagnosis abilities as it is a series of deductions that are arrived at by the machinist during the phase known as: catastrophic failure analysis...

    Normally, I would not take the time or exert the effort, as after 5-10 minutes the audience's eyes, normally, will roll back into their heads as they get glassy...
    however, the incidence has become near epidemic, and there is a slew of misinformation which abounds here in these forums...there are a precious few who are rather well informed and are shying away from more specificity as to the causation issues-myself included

    The offer to give a painfully clear explanation-charts, graphs, photos, and math/chem lines included-is now a consideration if the interest is infact there
    THIS IS TECHNICAL information and will be "dummied" down to a level where-in the layperson should be able to ingest/digest even this degree of specificity
    For the extremely technically oriented and advanced degreed readers, this is a warning, as it might short circuit your reading as the intent is so that the EE guys can satiate the need to understand the cause and effect relationships...

    !.) Nomenclature-at the atomic levels...
    2.) Governance by laws of nature, and Universal constants
    3.) Basic foundry/casting materials science issues and concerns
    4.) Gas dynamics and thermal mass issues
    5.) Stochiometric and stochastic calculus(!)
    6.) Finely particulaed colloidal Platinum Catalysis at the 10-25 Angstorm level
    7.) Catalytic "promoters", "cold bag" before the "big HILL", winning the "GAME" (LA-55)
    8.) FTP-cvs/LA-55 the REAL smog test....CAFE numbers and gas guzzler TAXES
    9.) The FUELS-is it gasoline? What is 2,5 Iso Pentane?
    10) RE formulated fuels, alcohols, WHAT THE REFINERIES have missed!!!
    10.) What effect the LAST 3 or 4 lines have on: the FIRST 7-8 lines??????

    The QUESTIONS ARE NOT LINEAR, NEITHER ARE THE ANSWERS ....

    If the audience exits, I will post a series of very clear explanations as to the causes and effects which are so frequently being queried...
    the GOAL is to distill the info down to a palateable "lite read" and NOT be a technical diatribe suiteable only for a scientific Journal's publication desk's review which requires a degree in a scientific discipline...

    Do readers REALLY want to know?
     
  2. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,576
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    I don't know about the rest of the guys but I'm all eyes.
     
  3. RS6bird

    RS6bird Formula Junior

    Mar 20, 2006
    316
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Full Name:
    RS6Bird
    Me too, ready to read more!
     
  4. Elsi

    Elsi Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 26, 2010
    1,630
    Zürich (Switzerland)
    Full Name:
    Markus
    Subscribed for this thread
     
  5. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    5,969
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    Give it your best shot ill read it.
     
  6. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2004
    7,673
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bruce Bogart
    Sounds very interesting and I would definitely read and try to understand.
    In the interest of reducing controversy, it would be nice if you would also post your qualification to address such issues, as you are obviously learned in the areas mentioned.
    We seek answers!
     
  7. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Jun 14, 2011
    8,569
    SoCal LA/OC/New Mexico
    Full Name:
    Tim Dee
    Would love to have a for the better word a "cheat sheet" of info
    Us retirees tend to have every new bit of info into our brain one leaves. I know I'm overloaded for sure LOL
    I just hate breaking out all my old Smokey Yunick books to remember what I'm doing

    Now if this can be pulled off without everyone challenging every point
    I say it should be done in a "closed thread" until its done for sanity sake

    :)
     
  8. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    5,969
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    I should warn you though there is some tough cookies on here with strong opinions and lots of them are quite smart. That's why I was not scared to buy the 355 I find a tonne of support with good common sense most times.

    Ps. You guys know who you are and thanks for all the help present and future.
     
  9. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    870
    SF Bay Area
    Full Name:
    T. Monma
    My premise is that the majority of readers are lay persons...
    that said, there will be a distinct flavour of: "in general terms"...in the interest of not putting everyone to sleep.
    For those with scientific educations, and or a lifetime as a practioner of a/one of the segments of the "arts" required to service, repair, and re-manufacture, modify in the name of "improving the breed", if insistent...I will in certain instances, be glad to cite patents, articles, and the host of source information which I can in most cases recall after a lifetime of participation in the field.

    As a baseline-it is important to know that: I harbour NO axe to grind one way or another with respect to the 355! In fact: I was enthralled with the car from the lines and the rear 1/4s 288 esque curvqatures, to the 6 speed and the shreik of the 5-valve motor at redline.
    Particularly, the spider...
    In fact, when delivering new vehicles at a dlr in 1994/95, I was shocked at the rapidity with which Ferrrai had moved on to a new "platform" from the 348.
    When the truck dropped of a serie speciale, and 2 348 spiders..there was a pair of black "B"s, and one of the first 10 USA cars, (it was a Giallo GTS which had been used at the Rodeo drive introduction for the F355). As I reviewed the spec sheet, I was gasping at the claims of power and performance. I turned to my colleague-a man whom I still regulary work with on the brace of "P" cars-and said:
    "well...at 380 BHP at 3.5 litres, SOMETHING'S GOTTA give...I'm betting we will be doing valve jobs on ALOT of if not ALL of these a COUPLE of times before they get scrapped."
    Prophetic words....
    The lowect mileage was 9400/9600 miles. The FIRST car in USA to have heads off under warranty for valve guide wear/replacement/failure-according to the rep-was done in our facility at 52,000 miles(!), within 9-10 months of delivery, on either the second, or third set of headers.(IMO-these people had paid for the privaledge of being a test-beta)
    And, under full scrutiny, and monitoring of the job, and of the failure/wear profiles, by FNA. The rest, as they say, is a matter of "public record".

    As an additional "anecdotal factotum": At the time, I had queried the crew chiefs of a couple of the Challenge teams as to the failure/wear profiles of both valve guides and headers(with respect to perforation ruptures and cracking in general), and was somewhat stunned at the near non-existence to date, for header failures as seen on street cars, and only incidental wear consistent with all out racing in modded "street" cars.
    The significance of this will be brought back into focus at a much later point, specifically as it will serve to tie into a significant engineering problem which casts a long shadow over EVERY car: The CVS FTP LA-55, with Shed.

    I had-in a "previous life"-been an M/B "shop foreman for heavy duty and collision"(motors and automatic trannies, and wrecks), and was one of only 3-4 people west of the rockies, as a warranty approved "sublet" (while as an employee) for the maching and repair of the ALUSIL 116/117 class of alloy block engines(380/500/420/560, yes, big block and small block!~)
    We had a Sunnen CV-616/J (with a CH-100 align HONE integrallly manufacured) off site.
    The early 380/116 blocks were suceptible to "softness", as we called it, so this was the dawning of a new era, circa 1981-82...more on all of this subset later, as it will be a detailed article. Tolerances were now being asked to be held in "tenths," at specific temperature and humidity envelopes...
    1981 is a significant milestone with respect to automobiles: the advent of the 17 digit VINs, the implementation of ox sensors and 3-way catalysts, etc...the "modern era" has dawned.
    Check the CFR, its all there in black and white, under the subsections governing "passenger cars and light duty trucks, not exceeding 7500 Lbs." There are extensive codification of requirements for BOTH EPA regs, AND DOT regs. It is a "two part harmony."

    As to bona fides: are you requesting educational, or, occupational/experience/career history?

    There is an old saying used at MIT: "when you graduate from MIT with a degree...you can compete with the top people in your field in the world....
    When you graduate from MIT with an advanced degree....You ARE the top people in your field in the world..."
    I have numerous former colleagues and classmates up the river a way at Harvard, who take great umbrage with such notions. But, they are again, negotiating-as is frequently done with grades. Any grade which can be negotiated, is not a REAL piece of "serious curriculum."
    Either you got it right, or, you got it wrong.
    In short: you either know your stuff, or you don't.
    You can't "negotiate" a result from "hard curriculum"{as in: Point Set Topology?}
    as oppossed to "soft curriculum"{Romanticism in 18th century French Poetry?}

    This meant to offer a glance at the world as I grew up-without perspective, viewpoints can appear skewed....
    whilst generally it seems an interested audience, there have been some startlingly hostile and confrontational replies-much to my amazement. Largely, the closer to 65yrs of age and older, the more this all will seem a matter of fact musing down memory lane-as oppossed to "I'm right, and here is why, and the rest of you are clueless"
    That's NOT where I'm coming from, a lifetime of experience, and a quality, "classical education" offers a more defacto deductive reasoning approach as to conclusions of results, as oppossed to: This is what "I think...."

    Is this perhaps better suited for the tech section???
    Going abroad for several weeks, back after CAVALLINO...
     
  10. awilson

    awilson Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2013
    368
    Annapolis Md
    Full Name:
    Andrew G. Wilson,II
    I'm waiting and hope to understand what is said.
     
  11. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 13, 2004
    7,130
    Michigan
    I have a transmission propellor shaft that sheared and isn't the only one I have seen. Someone want to check that and add it to the scary list of 355 failures.
     
  12. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
    18,214
    Twin Cities
    Full Name:
    Tim Keseluk
  13. dantm

    dantm Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2003
    1,101
    YYZ, BOS, SFO
    Full Name:
    Dan B.
    There will be so many issues tried to be tied together in this thread it will be second only to Hawking's Unified Theory of Everything
     
  14. phrogs

    phrogs F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 13, 2004
    7,130
    Michigan
  15. 308tr6

    308tr6 Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
    466
    SDakota
    Full Name:
    Rico
    If we are going super tech here, I would feel better about this if metallurgy was spelled correctly in the title.
     
  16. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,410
    socal
    Wow! I used to sleep in the back of the class but I'm fighting for the front row on this one.

    I can hardly wait for the next post.
     
  17. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Aug 26, 2011
    16,345
    Adelaide, South Aust
    Full Name:
    Steve
    #17 Steve355F1, Jan 13, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
    Lol! Not to mention "asnwer", and

    "As it applies to ALL Ferrri engines..."

    I guess spelling isn't high on the list of priorities for the best of the best.
     
  18. UConn Husky

    UConn Husky F1 Rookie

    Nov 11, 2006
    4,422
    CT
    Full Name:
    Jay
    Indeed...
     
  19. 308tr6

    308tr6 Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
    466
    SDakota
    Full Name:
    Rico
    He did get MIT right though - ha! Hey no offense to the OP, just having a little fun with the ivory tower.

    In the technical world though, I found out a long time ago that how you present is as critical as what you present. Us pocket protector guys have to respect the bow ties.

    I appreciate the efforts and very much look forward to the definitive white paper on the maladies of the 355 (real or imagined).

    Cheers.
     
  20. stevew3765

    stevew3765 Formula Junior

    Oct 27, 2012
    716
    Tulsa, Oklahoma USA
    Full Name:
    Steve Wool
    lol
     
  21. vvassallo

    vvassallo F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 4, 2006
    8,281
    Palos Verdes
    Full Name:
    Vince V
    Stooge's Unified 348/355 Thread Theory - "348's rule, 355's drool". Thus endeth the lesson. :D
     
  22. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,387
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    I all ears (eyes) on this one..
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,410
    socal
    Since you guys complain about everything else why don't you complain to Rob to get us spell check?

    Geeze, you got a real bonafide pro ready to give a bunch of non-pros a serious FREE education and a you complain about spelling! Have a little respect. This is why pros stop posting. But I guess that is what you want if they even mention the number 355.
     
  24. 308tr6

    308tr6 Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
    466
    SDakota
    Full Name:
    Rico
    I will stand by my statements, pure and simple. If you claim to be the best of the best it should be self evident. When providing technical data, specifications, chemical formulae, hard mathematical calculations, etc., accuracy matters. Period. You can have the last word, but I do respect the person and his efforts, I said that. You can believe what you wish.
     
  25. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Aug 26, 2011
    16,345
    Adelaide, South Aust
    Full Name:
    Steve
    Get a sense of humour, for goodness' sake!
    It's called taking the piss and people should learn to take themselves less seriously.

    Here's an example;
    based on your post above obviously you are not a pro, because NOTHING seems to stop you posting negative stuff about 355s
     

Share This Page