R8 V10 vs F430, prices are level! Now what?

Yeah the R8 does not look quite right from its fugly front end. Lambo Gallardo looks way better and I'd rather buy a used Gallardo than a new R8. But thats me if I am spending 150k on a car.

 

It seems to me you and others are forgetting about something else. It isn't simply the number of production cars related to just an F430 and/or 458. It's about "supply and demand" for "all" performance and regular cars and the competition of "price to performance".

This thread is about R8V10 vs F430. The "prices" are level probably due to the fact that the overall performance "numbers" and "actual performance" and "actual value" what a buyer feels they are getting are comparable.

Ferrari always has the advantage from the standpoint of that it could perform and have "less" but still is valued/priced more that it's competition to Lambo, Porsche, Audi R8, Chevy Corvette, etc.

In order to explain further we would need to go through a brief history of performance cars. I can only relate the history for the United States but I believe other countries are comparable.

1950's and 1960's were the era of muscle cars. Cars reached a high of ~375hp to 400hp.
1970's saw a downward trend in hp and the size of vehicles.
1980's saw a trend of hp and size climbing slowly but surely.

Same for the 90's. For example, early 90's 348 about a 14s 1/4 car. Mid/late 90's BMW M3 1995-1999 had 240 hp for around a 3,000 lb car. 240hp and a 14 sec car for that era and time was quite good and the vehicle's track performance decent. Around this same time, a Ferrari 355 has 375 hp for around a 2,976 lb car. 0-60 4.6s and 1/4 12.9s. Again great performance for that era.

In the 2000's we saw a rapid increase in hp and size. BMW E46 M3 came out with 333 hp in a 3,400 lb car. 0-60 4.8s and 1/4 13.2

Ferrari 360 though only went up to 400 hp and 3,100? lbs but more refined. 0-60 4.2 1/4 12.5s.

More important is that we saw a huge jump in the pure number of vehicles producing over 300 hp. Even a daily sedan could have 260hp or more. Kind of shows why the E36 M3 value is where it is. Kind of the same for the E46 M3.

The same can be said for 355's. 375hp and the performance you get in today's market isn't much. A 90's car with the exception of a modified Acura NSX looks really dated.

The 360CS still looks quite modern from the exterior. A 360 modena with star wheels looks a bit dated also.

The F430 483hp came out in 2005. 458 570hp in 2010. I really try to imagine in another 10 to 15 years or so how much hp and performance one will get out of both a "performance" car and your normal daily driver. In other words, with those generations have 700hp? If yes...it's probably from perhaps hybrid technology? Partial solar power where you get 500hp but yet avg 30mpg?

Where does this all end though? If at all? It's almost physically impossible to go any faster 0-60. How much faster can one go around a track? We've hit the point of diminishing returns.

What new technology can be added to future cars that has real added value. Many cars have Nav systems and blue tooth. Those didn't exist really in the 90's and earlier.

How about this question and comparison. An E92 M3 has 414hp. It came out in 2008. That's 9 years since the last Ferrari 355 which had 375hp. So in 2014 (9 years after the 2005 F430 came out) which is already now...does the BMW M3 have 39 more hp than an F430 483hp? Not even close.

I just did a search on the 355's and they are selling for around 45-60K?

There are many other comparisons which can be done. The 991 GT3 475hp. 9 years later and it still has less hp than a 2005 F430. For sure hp levels have tapered off. Performance wise though pretty sure a 991 GT3 will easily outperform an F430.

I can't predict what the future holds but it's hard to agree that the F430's and 458's will drop in prices as rapidly as the 355 and 360 have. It doesn't matter there is more F430's and 458's. What matters is what can one buy in comparison for what a newer vehicle costs and what you're getting for it.

Back in 2008 and 2009 when the economy went soft the F430 prices started to drop rapidly. Some predicted that when the 458 came out the F430 will drop at an even steeper rate. That didn't happen. When the 458's came out they were priced at a range where it didn't make sense to pay so much more over that of what you could get for an F430.

If anything the F430 has gone up slightly. People were saying 90-100K would be more the norm for an F430 by 2014. That's not the case. Look at the cost for a new 991 GT3 or even a regular 991.

Many people have asked the question...why buy X when I can get into a used "Y", etc. This is what will drive the market. If a 700hp 30mpg does indeed come out in 10 years but if it costs 600K in today's dollar then how much can a 458 really drop? One has to factor in the cost of repairs and maintenance also and reliability. A 355 icosts more to maintain than a 458. Sorry for the long post.

 

It's a Ferrari - doh.

And not a glorified sales reps car.

 

Spend a hair more and wait just a little longer for a McLaren MP4. At the rate those things are depreciating, 140-150s is just around the corner.

It's everything an R8 is, just faster & better. I've owned both.

The question then of MP4 vs 430, unless the 430 is a discostick, i'd get the mp4.

 

In terms of which car performs better, there is no question...MP4 12-C. With the recent tune upgrade, it steals the show and smokes pretty much everything out there. Not a fair comparision with the 430 or anything else, for that matter. A different animal from start to finish. Twin turbo V8 with recent 2013 tune is just a monster. I don't see $140K happening anytime soon, however.

 

What kid would dream of owning an Audi when they grow up?

An Audi is a glorified sales rep car, bolted together from a VW parts bin, and even worse, a skoda's parts bin now.

I have had test drives in most Audis, they old suffer from the same problem, they are boring soulless cars that are not as good as a BMW or Merc, let alone a Ferrari.

A Ferrari, just about any Ferrari is an experience every time you drive it, something that feels special. This is why most people who talk about unobtainable cars metion Ferrari first. Even though they have no idea what a Ferrari would cost to buy.

Nobody in their right mind buys a Ferrari as an investment, with the exception of a few rare models that is, but these rare models are generally older models, the cost of maintanence could be high, something people dont think about when talking about an F40 as an investment.

Neil

 

I sure as hell didn't spend the last forty odd years aspiring to own an Audi!!

saying that the old Auto union history is quite special, but somehow I suppose doesn't have the magic or glamour of Ferrari.

German - model of efficiency, cold, does the job but a little dull.

Italy - Passion, style, flair, drama - and that worry that it might breakdown.

I suppose I'm getting around to a conclusion here: If you like safety, a sure bet and knowing where you stand buy the Audi or any German car for that matter. But for those of us with a little passion in our veins there really is only one car to aspire to!

We all know in our heart of hearts that Ferraris make no financial sense whatsoever (as don't most performance cars if we're honest) so if you're going to blow a wad at least do it with style, passion, and " la bella Figura"

 

LOL...vs the Fiat parts bin?

Though I agree with the idea that Audis are not as invigorating and "special" as just about any Italian car I'd be careful pointing my finger at parts-bin engineering and then holding Ferrari (or any brand) up as an example to the contrary.

 

I don't think later models use many parts off a fiat or anything else. I have a 430 so please tell what bits of it have come from a fiat ?? its good to know these things as it can mean cheaper parts.

 

Yeah but women LOVE them. They're equivalent to Infiniti.. which is to say they're just like the VW Jetta or Passat or Maximas that they love in practicality but a step up on the interior quality and sportier ride. A VW with better build quality and materials.

I find them equivalent to BMW or Merc. Not too impressed with either one in quality dept. personally.

 

I'm afraid I don't know all the details but I've read a number of threads here that specify which parts are from Fiat, BMW, etc...all modern cars are built of many shared components.

It might be mostly stuff you don't see but it's there. The R8's gearbox has "Lamborghini" stamped on it!

There's no question though that Ferrari spends some money where it really matters...THE ENGINE!

 

Which R8 did you "test Drive" Driving other Audi's is not the same as driving an R8.

The parts bin most of the parts came out of would be the Lamborghini bin.

 

The video series Ultimate Factories says differently, these are hand built by seasoned Audi professionals
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYaD6Z8Z24]Audi - YouTube[/ame]


BTW, this may be the last manufacturer offering a manual transmission

 

What he said. This thread is just so retarded.

 

They could spend a little more on exhaust manifolds.

 

R8V10 all day.

 

A friend of mine had the R8 V8 manual, then the V10 spider with DCT. He was trying to compete with my 360 and then my 430. When both were put next to each other strangers went to the Ferrari.

I drove both.

As to cars sharing parts, that is absolutely true, cars share common injection systems for example, mostly bosch systems. Almost every car has a sister car build by another company, as they share the development and production costs. So these are identical cars, minus some trim, badges and options. You can remove an Audi part and bolt it straight on to almost any VW range of cars. The Audi A4 is the same car as a VW passat. The A6 shares most of it's bits with the phanton, I can go on. If anyone can come up with a VW range car that does not share or is identical to another VW car I would be surprised.

Ferrari use bosch as well, but they also use Fiat, but you can't swap most Fiat bits to a Ferrari, the locking mechanisms are Fiat for example. Fair enough, but the engines, brake, suspension is not transferable, well not without serious modification.

You can take the suspension or brakes of almost any VW range and fit it to another VW car, the rear suspension of the R8 is lambo.

An audi is not a supercar, or a hypercar, the R8 is a poors mans supercar. Just because a Ferrari has depreciated to the levels of an Audi does not mean you can compare the two. Thats like comparing a vintage champagne with a supermarket one, even if the price was the same, whats inside certainly is not.

In the UK, Audi, and for that matter Lexus are not viewed at the same level as BMW or Merc, they are the poor mans version of a prestige car. I am sorry if that offends, but it is the truth.

Neil

 

Same view we have here in the usa. At least among younger people. The older seem to love lexus and girls love audi. But for younger gearheads neither are on the same level as bmw or merc

 

wonder how many times BMW or Merc have won Lemans or the Daytona 24 lately....R8 is one of the best ever. I have a 430 and an R8 right now

 

This is somewhat ignorant (and I've had a couple of BMW's). The Audis have surpassed BMW in a few segments and BMW has no R8 competitor at this point. Merc has never done anything for me as they are old man luxury cars, not sports sedans (AMG's excluded). I'm a BMW fan, but my next car will likely be an Audi as BMW has lost the plot a bit. For example, you can no longer get a decent wagon from them in the US, while Audi has some excellent ones.

 

What has the reliability been on both of them?

 

The A6 does not share its platform with Phaeton. The Phaeton is the basis of the Bentley Continental GT and Flying Spur. A6 is a derivation of the new B8 A4 platform.

The A8, incidentally, does not share it's platform with any other car. As the Phaeton/Bentley is a steel car and the A8 is an all aluminum structure.

People can view things any way they like but I find it ignorant and laughable to judge the merits of a car based on brand value. Regardless of what people may "think" the R8 is every bit as technologically advanced as it's sports car contemporaries.

To suggest that a $150,000-$200,000 car is a poor man's anything is unbelievable. What must you think of people who buy used Ferraris. Shudder the thought...

Real car enthusiasts know, understand and appreciate this.

 

ignorant, or just a matter of opinion. i've owned audis and bmws so i have a lot of experience with both makes.

 

my guess is that R8 is more reliable than 430.

 

ok my 2 cents

Between 2000 and 2010 i have been taught by the dealer that i was the private guy who bought the more mercedes and only high end models ( including a maclaren).
I dont give the number it scares me ..
I get some BMW as well
In 2010 i started to buy audi and get a r8v10 ( actually 2 a spider and a coupe)and had last year a rs3 and rs6 and i can tell that Audi is way better than mercedes not to say bmw.
The r8 v10 is better than a ferrari in handling in the corner due to the 4x4 but can be kindda boring
That being said i had ferrari s in the same time and prefered them and have never been bored using them.
i " only' have a mt 360 spider in the USA and love it every time i use it .
After a couple of days i stopped looking at my r8 in the garage never happen with a ferrari