Dilemma: 355 or 328 as first Ferrari?

it has nothing to do with the belt. since ferrari's are rarely driven often enough to reach the 90k to 100 k mark , if the the interval was 10 years or 100k like most cars money hungry dealers would lose a main part of their income. regardless of the type of car ,modern timing belts are very tough, we rarely see cars in our shop with busted belts , even at 150k or more.i won't tell anyone not to change it , but for me , periodic checks for proper tension and wear are fine. changing that belt every 4 or 5 years is ridiculous.

 

John, while I appreciate your experience, I think your efforts to compare a Ferrari to every other car and to compare every shop alike is really not accurate. Every machine, while similar, are not the same. The same goes for service. Just because a garage has tools and a lift does not mean they have proper experience to work on all cars.

You try to level the fields on all counts and I don't agree, they are not level.

 

Ernie, the great experimenter of leaving the belts on for 10 years, is now in the middle of his service. He is about to post the reason why you should service your car more often than 10 years. Wait for it.

 

give a good reason? other than you're told to. if i buy 2 timing belts , lets say manufactured by continental , put one in my ferrari and one in my audi s8 , why is the belt good for 100k in the audi and only 30k in the ferrari , thats not even a third .both cars have multi valve v8 engines.the dimensions of the belts ,length and width are similar . like i said give a good reason why.

problem here is most owners think the car is so special and so different that it requires something special in service, and maybe that makes you feel like you drive something special in some weird ferrari snob like way. look at your engine , there is nothing there that doesn't exist on any other 32 valve v8. a block ,pistons , valves, intake nothing special . but if it makes you feel good thinking you drive some exotic machine ( and that's what a ferrari does , strokes ego's) good for you , simple fact is , under it's beautiful skin , there is nothing special about it. keep dreaming.

I'll compare it to every other car , how's this , it is simpler than every other car we work on , a stupid 16 year old kid could work on it.

in pieces in our garage is a 2004 audi s4 engine , now that's complex , a crankshaft driven pto on the back of the engine driving multiple timing chains , a shaft drive a/c compressor , fancy !

 

"the same goes for service. Just because a garage has tools and a lift does not mean they have proper experience to work on all cars."

i'll pose the question to all , besides just daverocks , because i want to know what i am not seeing.

if i have guys in the shop that can work on the most complicated machines on the road ,late model european cars , s class benzes , audi's and bmw's .... all with driving by wire systems , canbus computer controls , electronically controlled transmissions , vvt and so on , what is so special about a 348/355 that only a specialist can work on it ?

holy crap , most of the car is held together with phillips screws, what am i missing?

 

The best reason I can think of in the 3 year v.s other year belt change debate that occurs on these threads ever 6 months for every model ferrari makes.. is legal. They HAVE to push that time frame on the "official statement" to the narrowest possible in order to avoid a lawsuit that will mandate them paying for engine repairs. I.e. at the 3 year mark there is a 0.001% probablility of failure verus at 7 years it 5%. I go five years on mine personally between changes and have a 928 (albeit with a clearance head) that hasn't had a belt change since 1997. it still starts and runs and the belt hasn't broken or sheared. I agree.. it ain't the belts.

To counter.. Ferrari builds alot less "margin" into the operation of their engines regarding component tolerances. I think they push the components alot closer to the limit than Audi or BMW in the name of performance. That closer tolerance, compared to the detuned offerings of Porsche, Audi and kinda BMW, is what mandates a belt change at closer intervals.

 

Again, I will repeat. My understanding of the need for more frequent belt changes is the suggested/normal operating rpms of these engines being higher than many other cars suggests a more robust replacement schedule.

We are just talking about belt change here now, not the other items that are addressed at engine out service.

 

personally having owned both I would opt for the 355.....

 

The engine is capsble of , maybe , 800 to 1000 more rpm than other engines , i don 't see that justifying less than 1/3 the belt life. So not a good Answer,.preaching to persoective owners of the NEED to change the belt every 4 to 5 years is stupid. The choice to service it at those intervals is just that, a choice , not a need


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355 has 8500rpm redline and 8750rpm fuel cutoff. Audi is nowhere near that. It's not just that the belts have to spin to a higher rpm, it's also that the valve springs are stiffer to control the valves at those rpms, and (in the case of the 355 and 360) there are 5 of those valves per cylinder instead of 4. Put all of that together and you get more stress on the belts.

 

Audi's also have 5v, less rpm granted, but not nearly enough difference to justify less than a third belt life
Dont get me wring i would not leave the belt in my ferrari for 100k , but i know its capable of alot more than 4 years or 30k

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I could be wrong but i thought the 360 went back to 4v


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Again John. My understanding is not the potential to operate at the higher rpms, it is the suggested/normal rpm range over say a 5 year period of regular usage that if logged would show that a 355 timing belt would most likely have significantly more usage in terms of rotations than a car with a lower operating rpm range.

I drove my CLS MB to SC on a 1500 mile round trip and was astounded to note that at 80mph my rpm was about 2200. That engine was barely idling at that speed. If I was driving my 355 on that same trip, I would venture to say that the engine wear potential was significantly higher.

Now if you don't drive your car at all, then it is just the age issue and not the mileage/rpm wear. I suppose you could say in that scenario the belts just don't wear or deteriorate with so why change them.

 

Hey , i own garage , i wish people would do timing belts every year, more money for me!peace of mind is great, but physically the belt would last longer than you think, i have a legacy gt, that we use as a beat around car for the shop, its always turning some good rpm, its been in the family since new, so i know its original , 322k on it, the car is beat at this point we want to see how long it will take to break
I drive it weekly to harrisburg pa , 2 hours , going 90 to95 mph the whole way at over 4000 rpm steady
Please ,i know a subaru is not a ferrari , but over 300k, its an 05 , so almost 10 years old too, and its a turbo, throw in all the heat too!
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360's have 5 valves. On 430's they went back to 4.

But how detuned did the engineers take the engine? if you detune an engine enough you're going to get like a million miles out of them.

 

It's generally not the belts that fail, it's the cam tensioner bearings which is why Hill has designed a more robust replacement. The reason most owners do an engine out after 5 yrs or so is not due to a concern that the belt is going to snap, it's to address things like the water pump, check valve guide wear, etc. And, while the engine is out it is prudent to replace the belts since they are relatively inexpensive. So, in a sense both sides are right -- changing belts every 3 yrs and 30k miles is overkill solely from a belt fail perspective but it is still prudent to do an engine out every 5 years or so.

 

So , prudent , a choice , but needed, required?no. Do the job with hill components , and possibly extend the interval?that sounds realistic, perspective owners should not decide not to buy because of talk on here about excessive repair costs, it should be a consideration , but not deal breaker , this all seems off topic , but part of the original question for deciding which model,picking a model should not be made out of fear of posts from owners who choose to maintain the car in a particular way , as opposed to the facts of what the car is actually capable of


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John,

My point is, all shops are not equal. All restaurants are not equal. All hospitals are not equal. All contractors are not equal. Just because someone "does the work" and "has the tools", it does not necessary mean they do an equal job to others, especially when they do not have the specific experience of others.

 

Thats good advice , next time i go out for breakfast , i'll ask the chef what kind of experience he has cooking eggs, ask him if he has the proper egg flipper. Eggs are eggs, cars are cars, get over it
Thats why there are cook books.for those of you who have no repair experience, garages use things like alldata and mitchell on demand, it contains ALL factory repair info ,
Specs ,procedures, tsb info , diagrams etc, if you can read , you have what you need to work on 1960 beetle or a 2013 bently,but only someone with shop experience would know alldata exists. When i go out to a dive bar and order wings they are great, simple straight forward wings, go to a fancy restautant with an "expert chef" and they will be the worst you will ever have, they will have all kinds if ingredients that don't belong, taste awful and be overpriced, but yet some arrogant snobby fruitcake will be sitting there smacking his lips enjoying his $25.00 wings ! Don't be an a••hole and tell the guy using butter and hot sauce he doesn't know how to make wings
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Worry less about the right model and worry more about finding the right car at the right price.

Having several models to choose from puts you, as the buyer, in a very good position.

If I were you I'd add 348s and well as Carb 308s to your shopping list and buy the best car at the best price.

On maintenance worries and the like -

All cars break. The older a car gets the more stuff brakes. Parts for exotics have always been more expensive, old or new. If you can't afford a few $100 a month for parts/maintenance don't buy an exotic.

You know how you drive. Old exotics need drivers who drive in partner with the car, more like riding a horse. If you don't do that with your daily driver, you need to either set aside a lot more money for repairs and maintenance or look for a modern exotic with plenty of driver's aids. Do you burn through tires? Do your brakes need 30K mile change intervals? Do you blow out suspension bushings? If so then you need to be prepared for regular multi $1000 repair bills.

These cars are old enough that the technology in them is no longer exotic, so yes a good mechanic should be able to handle the repairs. Although a good mechanic is as rare as these cars.

 

Nick,dont overlook a 348. The car you choose will say alot about who you are. Are you a nice down to earth guy who bought the car for the exhilarhation of driving a fine machine,or you can choose a very similar model that says i 'm pretentious and arrogant, and love bragging about how this exotic machine can only be fixed by the super rich by expert hands and therefore is beyond the reach if mere mortals.


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Huh? Really John?

This is how you view people by the cars they choose to own?

 

I see alot of arrogance in some of the posts i read
Not from you drbob , but some others that i won 't name

i pick up on some attitude in posts from 355 owners that i don't sense coming from 348 owners. i read posts from 348 , even 308 and 328 owners and i never say to myself " what a du**chebag" but yet i read posts from some 355 owners and i ask myself " what planet is this j*rkoff from"

Why is that?

to the original poster, if a 328 or a 348 is a good fit for you buy it , don't feel like you will be driving some less than godly machine if you don't buy a 355.
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maybe i'm the only one that will have the balls to say it , but the car you buy says alot about who you are . You can't tell me the guy who buys an orange lambo is a shy guy who doesn't want to be noticed, or bought it because the seat feels good . come on !

That's like saying i bought a ferrari because it is so comfortable on cross country trips. i bought it because it is an attention grabber first , the rest of its virtues are second , at least i have the guts to admit it . no body on here bought it just because the dealer is nearby , parts are cheap , its good on gas and so forth. grow a set and admit it . the car you buy says alot about who you are. when's the last time you saw a rap star driving a daewoo?

 

I bought mine because I appreciate the beauty of the design, the elegance that Ferrari (and Pinninfarina) bring to styling and interior, the sound of the engine and the performance. I'd venture that most will feel the same… And BTW, my 355 is far more comfortable than my 2008 BMW Xi coupe.