The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Ferrari Classiche in their communication to you dated September 29th, 2004 effectively said the same thing. Also, without them confirming it has been revived, IF it has been, it should not have been. I haven't yet come across Marcel commenting anything at all on your car.

 

Count me a member of Marcel's club. I am very pleased that you rescued this chassis and sunk the cubic dollars into it to create what we see today. As for others, whose appreciation of this car turns on the parsing of selected comments offered up in various contexts for various reasons, they also are entitled to their opinions. Some of us whip out a camera when we see your car, some pull on a barrister's horsehair wig. It takes all kinds to make the world go round.

 

Thanks.

True.

 

Who cares if it should not have been revived?

The question 180 n out asked was do you think it was?

And if not what is your interpretation of what sits in front of us today?

 

Add me to that club. As for the apparent bitterness of some here, I simply cannot understand the fixation of trying to undermine what has been a very transparent thread by resorting into semantics an word play and interpretations of what to most speakers of English appears to be quite easily understood.

My opinion is there are personal issues at play here which have nothing to do with this thread and the topic is just being used as a means to vent those issues.

 

Will move my answers to all 0858 based posts to the 0858 thread per El Wayne.

 

I'd think any Ferrari enthusiast would appreciate the fact this car exists today.

 

Clearly not any Ferrari enthusiast.

I saw the car in the flesh, too, and "naked" while Sal worked on all its original bits like engine & gearbox.

A work of art.

I shudder at the fact it was discarded unnecessarily back in the day, and firmly believe it was rescued by Jim from what I saw with my own eyes, and the knowledge I continue to gain from this and other threads here.

 

The thread did divert to some degree over the last day with references to 0858 and 0900 but I think the cross pollination of these examples with 0846 is important given their genetic links.

Ferrari do like to play the game at times when it suits them, (and English is not their first language at the end of the day, which can muddy the waters)

I am pretty sure though if someone like Jim had turned up at Classiche with a truck load of the parts that are now in Jims car, (and a an even bigger truck load of Lira!) before it had actually found its way to David Piper, and said to Ferrari rebuild 0846 for me, they would have said "no problem sir" and now be singing a different tune about the finished article.

To all intent and purpose the car Jim has resurrected is descended directly from 0846 just as the current version of 0858 has the same link to its own past.

As enthusiasts we are lucky both examples exist.

 

I agree.

 

Most large family get-togethers include the drunk uncle that most have learned to ignore. Just sayin'.

 

I don't feel this has been ignored. We all know it. It is in the thread.

The mint mismarks currency and that currency is supposed to be destroyed and never see the light of day, but it doesn't get destroyed and it does see the light of day.

As far as the safety goes. My guess is that Ferrari made the decision due too it was too much work to make it worthwhile for them at the time.

Remember this was not a historical artifact back in the day. It wasn't worth all that much to them. It was just bent up metal and they could easily have another one made. They prob looked at it and decided they could make a new frame cheaper then they could safely fix the current one.

Doesn't mean that with the right amount of care it can't be fixed safely.

Just took some time for the frame to be worth the effort and the right man to see it through and from the pictures that are in this thread that day has come.

PLEASE. Make your point? Because I am extremely confused, as I believe everyone else is, as to what your argument is?

Are you saying that this is not the remains of 0846 or that it is but it should not have been built?

If you don't think that this car is the genuine 0846 please tell us your theory of what it is then???

You can only go along saying you don't think it is x so many times before you start sounding like the little boy that cried wolf.

Make your point and tell us why you don't think this isn't what Napolis says it is, and what most of us believe it is???

Other then that you're just saying stuff that more and more people just can't be bothered to listen to.

Accusations only hold so much water for so long. After awhile you need to put your story out there.

Are you upset that another car was not eliminated due to Ferrari not caring back in the day about discarding used up race cars? I just don't get it? I figured we'd all be stoked about a car that made it through the discarded Ferrari race car crusher.

Please clarify what the he double hockey sticks you are trying to talk about???????????

Is there anyone else in the Ferrari universe, besides Miura, That does not believe this car is what Napolis has stated that it is: 0846 reborn from what very easily could have been scrapped?

It is hard for me not to argue with you as your point of view on 0858 and 0846 seems to be for the destruction rather then preservation of actual Ferrari history.

 

When 0858 was converted to Can Am specs the engine capacity was increased by only just over 200 ccs which could easily be done several ways without designing and building new sleeves. The Can Am conversion for the entire car had to be done in less than two months and was never considered a priority. As far as I know few if any records have appeared detailing the procedure. In fact there is no real record of exactly which engine was in 0858 when the Can Am conversion was done or what engine is in the car now. It does appear to be a 350 cc engine but many details still are unclear. tongascrew

 

El Wayne has requested we move 0858 specific talk to the 0858 thread.

See prior post above.

Although I do agree with Paul500 and Napolis, as I also stated before, that it is hard for these discussions of the p cars to not cross pollinate, rules are rules. Wondering if one of the Mods can move the 0858 talk to the 0858 thread etc.

Also wondering if it would be allowed to start a P car thread where any of the cars can be discussed and compared freely as I think we feel that discussions about one are relevant to the other.

That way the 0846, 0858, 0900 etc threads can stay about those specific examples wheras the P car comparison thread can talk about issues that involve more then one car.

 

Interesting point made regarding 0846's worth in period.

If those parts were worth to Ferrari then what they are worth now, I very much doubt those remains would of been binned. To the factory in period, 0846 wasn't worth resurrecting.

Thankfully someone in the present day identified what those remains were and did. I have ZERO doubt if the factory found those same remains in a box at the factory today their classiche department would be working overtime to offer a completed and resurrected P3/4 to the market ASAP.

I'm also of the opinion that if the factory were presented with Jim's restoration of 0846 a few years ago they would of bitten his hand off to resurrect those glorious pieces themselves.

 

OK. Thanks for the clarification.

Doing my best to follow the rules and not get banned.

 

If anybody turned up to Classiche with a big enough bag of money they would build anything you like, including a 100% replica of #0846 ... which to them of course would not be a replica.

Witness the "new" 250LM they apparently built for Massa's manager.
Pete

 

I didn't realize that?

Are you sure of this?

I figured you had to own the serial number to get any part, let alone a whole car from them?

 

No I am not at all sure of this but we did talk about the 250LM in either this thread or the #0858 one and I'm still stunned.
Pete

 

You obviously have not read the recent posts in this thread properly. My current issue with Napolis is that he stated in post #6600 that Ferrari have confirmed in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis, not whether the car he has is the real 0846. See here:

I asked him in post #6601 where they have done this for him to reply in post #6607 and say the question is pathetic. I can't see anywhere that Ferrari have confirmed in writing that Jim Glickenhaus has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis.

 

I cannot see why this matters and furthermore do you really think you are going to find that evidence in the public domain?

Its tough to take your posts seriously when one reads your profile.

 

I have not read as much as 10% of this thread, but I think we all know that no one authorized to speak for Ferrari has ever stated that "Jim Glickenhaus has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis." I think the word "resurrected" was used in a statement which said that the cast-off chassis owned by Mr. G should *not* be resurrected, because Ferrari's racing team had "written off" the car with that chassis number. I think we also know that the context of that statement was not such that it established a definitive ruling that, once Ferrari's racing team has "written off" a specific car, and broken it up, and many years later a private party takes the chassis of that car and builds on it a duplicate of the car it once was, that this party cannot truthfully claim that it is a restoration of that same "written off" car. We also know that the fictitious business entity known as "Ferrari" has subsequently concluded that Mr. G's car is a restored version of the car that Ferrari racing had "written off", i.e., that in the opinion of "Ferrari" it is correct for him to refer to his car as P3/4 0846.

Now we can accept these things that we all know to be true, or we can go to our grave pretending that we do not know these things. Because there are no other facts to add to the narrative.

 

So, if as you say we all know that no one authorised to speak for Ferrari has ever stated that Jim Clickenhaus has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis, why does nobody apart from me take issue with his statement, which then must be an outright lie?

 

Did it occur to you that Jim himself may have been in communication with Ferrari directly? Did it occur to you there may be written correspondence between Ferrari and Jim?