The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The invoice clearly reads and is from:

Ferrari of North America which is the US Division of Ferrari S.p.A.

It is not from "Ferrari of New Jersey" which is a dealer.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Their address is listed as in New Jersey so I wrongly made an assumption.

Now for full clarification does the invoice state the chassis number 0846 or the name Jim Glickenhaus?

 

Okay, so let's briefly assume that the chassis in Jim's car is P3 converted to P4 and the chassis was taken from the skip. Ferrari back in the day were known for making new chassis for crashed cars as it has been written that happened to 250 GTO 3851GT after Henri Oreiller's fatal crash. Ferrari could have scrapped the chassis of P3 0848 after Le Mans 1966 and made a new one for the car. The chassis in the skip could have been that one. The chassis maker could have converted the P3 chassis to P4 specifications to fulfill DP's order. The replaced tubes on the rear RHS could have happened on this car due to an accident during practice or testing or even in DP's ownership which would explain the different welder/welds that Jim tells us about in his 0846 document better than the Vaccari made repair. My point is that the car may not necessarily be that of 0846 and could be 0848 or even 0844. I'm not saying it is, just trying to think what it could be.
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I do believe that you or I or Nick Mason or even Jim G. could not get Ferrari to cast these uprights or any part for that matter just for S#!ts and giggles. From my understanding you have to have a car with the serial# to get them to make the part.

If Ferrari has indeed not drafted said letter I do find what was said before as a legitimate reason not to: Liability. Ferrari wanted the frame destroyed and do not want to be sued if car resulting from said botched disposal injures anyone. In this case the fact that they do not deny it to me says that may be all they are legally allowed to say, that is if the absence of said letter is fact?

Some times the words that are not said, that the car is not 0846, are all the proof one needs if they are a logical thinker.

Seems the fact that they casted the uprights, that the car can travel freely through Italy, not to mention the obvious lineage of repair and modification to the frame is more then enough reasonable doubt for everyone but you.

I'm no P.I. or lawyer but I know enough about an investigation that sometimes all the evidence is not there, such as this letter, and sometimes you have to put the pieces together with what you have and the pieces that have been presented tell the story quit thoroughly with or without an official letter.

I find it funny and rather telling that you fail to state any reason for believing this car is not what it claims to be other then the absence of a letter from Ferrari.

Please build some sort of case why it may not be 0846 other then just some letter which understandably Ferrari may not want to give.

 

...and all you need to do is clarify once and for all what JG's car is in YOUR opinion.

I think it would be productive for you to actually have the decency to declare where you stand given the page after page of deconstructing the car's provenance.

 

Yes Miura. Google Alleges. Here I've done it for you....

https://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=alleges

al·lege

1. claim or assert that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically without proof that this is the case.

So just as Jim G. has to prove that what he said is true, so do you have to have something to stand on when Alleging that it may not be.

Quite honestly you've wasted alot of peoples time here wondering why we believe the car to be 0846. I feel Jim G and the forum has clearly stated why they believe it so. It is only decent for you to do some of the heavy lifting if you believe it may not be.

Please build some sort of case or don't be surprised if your comments fall on increasingly deaf ears.

 

All you've done above is given good reasons why Jim's car should not have gone in the Owner's section, subsection "my garage" of Ferrari's web site.

 

...and your opinion once and for all as to what you believe JG's car is?

 

The Letter.

I am not saying I believe that the car is not what Jim claims it to be due to the absence of a letter. Ferrari may not have issued a letter for the reasons you state. However, it is Jim who has said that there is confirmation from Ferrari in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis. The absence of proof of this confirmation is my concern.

 

...and YOUR opinion of what JG's car is...FINALLY?

 

I'm as frustrated as you are. In the absence of proof of the confirmation from Ferrari the jury in my mind is still out I'm afraid.

 

Although I feel the Provenance of both 0848 and 0844 is pretty well documented this at least a possibility that deserves some consideration. Also I feel that the frame coming from 0846 versus another car is pretty well documented in this thread but still worth considering the above.

I am posting this here for others to see that may have blocked you.

I will try to give you my best thoughts on this after I think it through.

Believe me, I am as interested in learning as much as I can about these cars as you are. I understand your thirst to get the facts as straight as can be. I do respect your thirst for this knowledge and what it ends up revealing. Seeing that the history of Ferrari's in this time period can become quite murky I feel it is important to vet all the possibilites before the old guard passes on and the history is lost forever.

 

You don't have the luxury of fence sitting when you clutter a thread with such loaded questions and statements.

 

0844 and 0848 were converted from P3 to "customer version" 412 P's by Ferrari. Not P4.

0844 P3>412 P for NART. NART then converted it to CanAm.

0848 P3>412P for Scuderia Filipinetti.

0846 is the unique one of the bunch, as it, and it alone has the specific chassis conversion measurements of a P3/4. It was originally built as a P3.

It is the only P3 converted to accept P4 engine specs, which included shortening from 2412 to 2400 mm.

There were 3 P4's built, making a total of for P4 Engine-spec, 2400 mm chassis.

The owner of 0846 also has 0854, which was built as a "customer version" 412 P, as was 0850.

All of the cars are accounted for, in whatever present-day iteration or abomination they may be.

If you want to define EXCLUSIVE, 0846 is IT. There is no other P3/4.

 

Amen.
Pete

 

Read my post again. Vaccari could have converted the 0844 P3 chassis to the P4 specs to fulfill DP's order.

 

Yes aware of this and I DO believe Jim's car has #0846's chassis because it is the only logical explanation, but NOBODY can say in writing what he is requesting, nobody. The best they can do is say they believe, based on evidence provided, that Jim's car bears the remains of #0846's chassis. I believe Ferrari Spa have already have done this.

And again, to Steve, there are hundreds of historic cars that you could not legally say in writing were 100% the car they are supposedly, such as Bentley Number 1 I believe and a few D type Jaguars, etc.
Pete

 

As I've said many times, Ferrari Spa believe Jim's car contains remains of #0846, but they cannot write that letter you are after. Nobody can, but the evidence points to Jim being right.
Pete

 

Can you please provide proof of where Jim said this please. Note he may have said "in writing" not that he had a letter.
Pete

 

I only had time to skim through his post, but I think the point he was making was that either one of those 0844 or 0848 at one time could have been damaged so badly that the old frame, or part of it, was scrapped and a new one, or part of a new one, was then what went to live with the car.

Then... the frame we believe to be 0846 was built from these remains versus 0846.

I am in no way saying that is a possibility or could happen at all but seeing how Ferrari swapped numbers so often I felt it only fair to post the possibility for others to see.

I don't want to put words in Miura's mouth so I will ask him to clarify if the possibility of this is the point he was trying to make?

 

There is other damage and repairs on the chassis, already disclosed, that indicate that its #0846 ...

I'm going back to work. Steve will never get what he wants and I still am concerned about why he is going to the end of the earth to make this point when logic dictates it is what it is.
Pete

 

Yes, this.

 

I was responding to Vincent Vangool's post where he made reference to a letter. Please see post 6600 for Jim's original statement regarding him saying that Ferrari in writing have confirmed that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis.

 

But your logic as in post 6854 dictates that nobody can state what it is.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread-343.html

 

Agreed on both points.

The truth is any car could be any vin due to number swapping, lapse in time of ownership where cars were lost in time etc. But at some point you have to look at the logic presented and deduce what the car most likely is.

I feel that you need to look at the evidence in this thread and from that any rational person would agree that it clearly shows this to be the frame of 0846, official letter or not.