The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142607417-post6509.html = POST 6509

 

Thank you!

Read this over, several times.

After the P3/4 frame was retired as scrap, there was never another, they were on to other things.

 

Just trying to help usher this thing to bed.

Next time I hear about this car I'm hoping it'll be the exhaust note.

Cause frankly I'm a bit exhausted at this point.

 

Ferrari themselves control the Your Garage portion of the owners website.
You post the files to them, and they review, and ONLY THEN it gets loaded, from their side of the software

I filled it up with my Art Cars, and roller derby girls...

Sorry, Jim..

 

I have no quibble with his quibble, but it's become rather annoying to clutter the thread with demands for letters from Ferrari, that say what he wants them to say.
They say what they want to say, and YOU hit the nail on the head, as to exactly "Why"...

Once a car is 'written off" the valid VIN list, it's gone, to them.

Myself, I have reviewed the frame geometry at the engine mounts of Mr. G's car, he openly shared the pictures.

He has shared discussion of the frame repairs, and that it remains slightly "off true" to this day.

Once the evidence stacks up, to concur with known facts, the gaps in provenance have to be accepted.

Fire it up.....

 

Yes.

Until some sort of evidence comes to light that it isn't 0846 I believe we have to look at the known evidence and conclude that it is, letter or not.

I think the best evidence comes from what El Wayne said "it's in the metal" which to me is much more concrete proof then any letter could ever demonstrate.

Also I feel that Napolis seems to be a very forthright and honest guy when it comes to the history of his cars and he makes this well known putting the actual history over perceived value. It seems like the history is what is most important to him even if it is not to his advantage.

This is clearly displayed on his disclosure of his Mark IV.

Personally I have a hard time not believing a guy who's honesty is intact even when it may not be to his advantage, such as what happened with the Ford.

 

Yes, I said that and as you have brought the subject up I have since found out that Ferrari have not actually published the details on the owner's section of Ferrari's web site. It's posted for Jim's private use. Jim is the one who has published the information here and on other web sites, not Ferrari. It is only available to the user for their sole entertainment and is pass word protected. Jim is the only one who can see the information that he submitted to them on their web site and he is their only intended viewee. Ferrari do not guarantee the accuracy of the information on the web site. Anyone publishing or copying this information needs the express permission of Ferrari S.p.A. As I have asked before: do you have their permission, Jim?

 

The facts are still the facts with or without the website or the golden paper.

Until there are facts that clearly demonstrate the conclusion to be wrong I'd have to guess that most of us are happy that he saved 0846 and that is exactly what happened.

And calling him out on sharing the website is just petty and quit frankly just highlights that you are on some sort of personal Vendetta or a witch hunt. Mostly in light of the fact that you are begging him for more information and he is just trying to satisfy your curiosity.

I don't feel as though you have any other reason to believe that this is not 0846 except for that you want to do anything you can to not believe it is 0846.

So for you the car may or may not be 0846 and for the rest of us it is.

Is that a satisfying enough conclusion for you?

 

.

They can but only by including words like: To the best of my ability and taking all the research into account this frame is most likely to be #0846.

Just as I cannot go out to my Alfa Romeo 1750GTV and hand on my heart say that the left front hub is the exact same one that it left the factory with. As I am the nth owner of the car and it's history is not fully documented I cannot confirm that. I will probably be able to confirm that any numbers of it match the appropriate year and model, etc. but that is as close as it gets.

So just take a minute Steve and digest this instead of just reading what you want to read.

Trying to make this clear to you: How many historic (racing) cars are running around out there where all their current owners can hand on their heart say that the (for example) chassis in that car is exactly the same one that left the factory. I reckon it would be lucky to be 75%. They are in no different position than Jim is with #0846, if there is a gap in a cars history you can only ever use words like most likely, presumed, etc.

Where Jim's #0846 has it better than some others is he has damage on the chassis that act like witnesses ... compared to my left front hub unfortunately (er, fortunately ) doesn't have such things so I've got nothing to trace back with. I would like to research who created the, what looks like a, stilleto hole in the hoodlining above the passengers seat ... but I'm reasonably sure the result of this won't raise the profile of my car
Pete

 

More to the point - Trolling.

 

How about this fact then? Jim has claimed that Ferrari have confirmed in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis and 15 days after asking where Ferrari have written this no information has been forthcoming. "Res ipsa loquitur."

 

You have it exactly reversed, Ferrari had an amount of time to OBJECT to Jim's decision to use the VIN number, based upon his research.

they did not.

Therefore the car is internationally recognized as "the current 0846", and Ferrari shrugged and went on with life..

I too wonder the motivation for your posts.

I you had something, other than endless conjecture, we would all like to see it.

 

Don't you get it? It's Jim who has made the claim that Ferrari have confirmed in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis. I haven't demanded any letter. I am merely asking him to back up and prove his claim which authenticates his car.

 

Res ipsa he doesn't give a **** what you think...

It is possible for anyone with a basic degree of logical thinking to extrapolate from the communications we have available from Ferrari to JG that their opinion of what SHOULD have happened - including the specific words used in the expression of that opinion which are the ones you so passionately bicker about - is a form of non-confirmation confirmation from a company that is known for such kinds of statements, that indeed the car whose identity Ferrari P3/4 #0846, that currently satisfies both the US and Italian legal systems, is built upon what are the proven to the highest extent to be remains of the chassis Ferrari determined as #0846. No, there probably is not a letter stating it in black and white. But there doesn't have to be. All you need to do is put the pieces together, like so many of us have done. And if the letter DOES exist, it doesn't have to be shown. Why not? Read on...

Despite their making it clear that AS FAR AS FERRARI IS LEGALLY CONCERNED 0846 was scrapped, it is the reality - documented and proven to the highest possible extent in the real world and not the fantasy time machine world where one could know about this with 100% certainty that seems to be necessary to satisfy your thirst for clearly/presently/really unattainable proof - that the chassis was in fact FOUND, REPAIRED, and eventually BOUGHT by JG, who constructed the car I was lucky enough to see with my own two eyes being cared for with the utmost quality and craftsmanship. An extensive documentation and disclosure by JG which has garnered the satisfaction of Ferrari (proven, despite your lack of acceptance, by their inclusion of the car in the Garage website, as well as their acknowledgment of & permission granted for JG's use of their trademarks); the Italian and US legal systems; several concours judges; & of the world's preeminent Ferrari historian (Marcel Massini) is enough proof that the chassis in this car is most probably that of #0846. That is as close as it's ever going to get, and JG admits this himself.

This isn't about what was or wasn't written or worded properly being what matters. It's about the people & organizations who matter being satisfied about this particular car's history. You are not one of these people/organizations, which is why it gets so frustrating to read the constant posts calling Jim Glickenhaus - someone who has done more to advance the knowledge and history of these cars than most, while taking care of two of them - a liar.

If you have a personal problem with him, please, please, take the short cut now and just say so, and deal with it accordingly, away from the public forum, and spare us all your dissimulation. Because seriously, calling him out about not having permission from Ferrari to post a print screen for a webpage is about as transparent as this sort of thinly veiled, childish, immature provocation technique gets.
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And we're saying you don't get it.

Whether Jim has a letter or not it really doesn't matter, as there is enough proof in the actual object to confirm that it is indeed 0846. We are willing to take the proof of the metal over the proof of some Ferrari executive.

Your problem is you wont stop nit picking about some stupid letter versus looking at the actual facts that have been cleary laid in front of you.

You can keep your interest pointed tunnel vision like at the letter.

I'm gonna keep mine centered on a car we all know could have been recycled into a chain link fence... But wasn't, and quite frankly I thank Jim, not you, for that.

 

Zactly.

Sometimes silence is the proof.

Great post. And if Miura doesn't get it... I don't know what else to say.

 

As said before.

All of the physical proof.

The fact that he can get the uprights made.

The fact that the car can travel freely through Italy.

Everything Merthesman said above and the fact that Ferrari doesn't dispute it.

Oh, and there's that Marcel guy whose word I would trust over any guy that's been working at Ferrari after the fact.

If that's not good enough for you then accept that you'll never find the answer. No magic bunny is gonna carry Enzo, plop him in your lap to tell you a bedtime story of how 0846 is 0846.

This is all we have and it is good enough for everyone but you.

 

I'm sorry but Jim didn't say it was non-confirmed confirmed in writing....he most definitely said that Ferrari have confirmed in writing....

No problem at all with Jim. Love all his cars and am grateful for his kindness for sharing them with us all here on F-Chat. Whether the car really is 0846 or 0003 I think it's fantastic as I've said previously.

 

Well the way you display your gratitude is quite a bit different than most, I must say.

As this point your posts are well past the point of harassment. Considerably too much ado about nothing.

>8^|
ER

 

miurasv, how about you address these two points?

What deems you to be entitled to any communication that Jim has had with Ferrari? Reading your posts one wonders why you are looking for employment as a car sales person(as per your profile) when perhaps you should rather take up legal studies.

The basis of your debate seems about as pertinent as debating whether the earth is perfectly round of 98% round. At the end of the day its still round.

 

We need a Like Button on this forum... LIKE

 

I've read Jim's documentation on 0846 when this thread was started and he provided clear and compelling evidence that this car (chassis) is 0846. When the car was displayed at Amelia Island Concours, I had the opportunity to look at the evidence in person. Jim patiently explained the details that make this chassis 0846 and not a manufactured P4 chassis like some have claimed. You can clearly see the wheelbase change from a P3 chassis' 2412 mm to a P4 chassis' 2400 mm. He also pointed out a repair made in the day and identified by a Ferrari mechanic as made by him. You can FEEL the weld on the strut where the repair was made, enough for me. Seeing the car first hand after 10 yrs of debate here was a real pleasure.

 

Only actual debates were whether 0846 was living as P5 or this vehicle was one of the 900s. And if not those, then what?

Neither a 900 nor P5.

There is but one P3/4 and it is alive and well in form, function, name, rank and serial number, 0846.


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Is there a Marcel Massini report on the car then? I'm not saying he hasn't commented but I've not yet come across any comments by Marcel himself regarding Jim's car other than hearsay by Jim. As you brought Marcel into it implying that he authenticates the car what's his official word on the car? I would be very interested to know.

 

Great seeing you as well.

Ferrari NART mechanic Wayne Sparling, at the behest of and under the direction and supervision of Mauro Forghieri, confirmed and memorialized by Gerald Rousch of and in Ferrari Market letter.

For those in the area 0846 will be on display next week at Authorized Ferrari Dealer Miller Motors for their 24 Hour of Daytona Evening Event. (They and MMM control invitations to the evening event so talk to them but the car will be on display in the Ferrari Showroom during the day.)