The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It's not been said that the chassis was actually FOUND at all but the act described is one of THEFT from the skip. This is a serious allegation for someone to make. If I was the chassis maker that it's said carried out this illegal act I would be very concerned. A libel action could result of such allegations. Also if the chassis of 0846 was actually stolen from the skip it was the property of Ferrari S.p.A so they may be able to claim it back.

Where has Marcel Massini stated that he is satisfied with the documentation?

My unanswered for 15 days question to Jim is exactly what this is about: Where have Ferrari confirmed in writing that Jim Glickenhaus has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis as he has stated?

 

Although you edited the post after the fact, you did write that Jim had $25 million reasons to lie about written confirmation that his car is the "resurrection" of P3/4 0846. There's a rule I apply to politicians in particular, but it's generally applicable, that it's when the speaker departs from the carefully prepared text that you're hearing what he or she really thinks.

 

Another misquote. No $ signs in anything I've written.

 

You redacted the "I can think of 25 million reasons to lie" and one can quite safely surmise [not assume] that "reasons" = $.

Stop digging a hole and start digging through posts, starting with Post #1. Bear in mind, The Old Board had even more info.

When you actually do that, you will find answers to your *questions you 'think' are new* that have gone "unanswered" because;

[A] They have already been asked and answered over the years.
Napolis does not waste time with Trolls.
[C] James Glickenhaus especially does not like being called a Liar.
[D] Understanding that, yet knowing The Answer you allegedly seek, like many Members; I refuse to do your homework. The onus is upon you to do so -> Zip It <- and come back when you have actually read the entire thread, then;
[D1] Present The Answer.
[D2} Apologize profusely.
[D3] Though it would do a world of good to apologize now.
[E] Realize that no one owes you a thing, which will go a long way in your future endeavors.

 

How is it possible that this car is 0003?

Am I incorrect in thinking that the continuation chassis were built to P4 spec?

 

So what did you mean by 25 million reasons then, before you thought better of it?

 

This post is unhinged. Bizarre at best.

 

I demand proof of this, in writing!!!

 

....and I will immediately offer it to you. Look in your email messages for your subscription to this thread. Exactly what I wrote will be there. Now please direct the same demand to Jim regarding his statement that Ferrari have confirmed in writing that he has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis.

 

Very telling of how he is twisting his story any way he can to cast any sliver of doubt that this car is not 0846.

This isn't his doubt or curiosity at play, he is doing whatever he can to cast a black cloud on a car that is clearly what the evidence shows it is.

He knows what he meant by 25 million, so to try to cover that up by saying he didn't use a dollar sign, just makes his motives all the more transparent.

If Napolis had 25 million reasons to lie about 0846 why did he come clean about his Mark IV, surely that cost him many "reasons" <no dollar sign ;-)

I truly believe that the history of these cars is what drives him, not the money.

And as far as what Napolis has said that other people have said about the car, such as Marcel saying it should have won best in show at Amelia, or Wayne Sparling under Mauro Forghieri telling of the repair he made to the frame, I believe him.

Why? Due to the fact that he has been so forthright in disclosing the car in this thread and because even when it costs him he still comes forward with the history as is the case of the Mark IV. What reason do you not have to believe him or that he is lying when the evidence is CLEARLY there??????

Just the fact that Sparling pointed out the repair is enough evidence to confirm that this car is 100% 0846. Even with the time lapse this is 100% confirmation that this is the real deal, golden letter or not. There is not a better confirmation then Mauro or the guys that work alongside him.

I also believe what he says is not a lie due to none of these people ever come on here to say that what he says is a lie. Whereas your cover up of the $ sign thing clearly shows that you are manipulating the facts to serve your story.

 

I have to think that at this point Napolis could care less about answering your questions, whether he has an answer or not.

I appreciate you wanting to clarify the facts of this car, but the way you have gone after Napolis, it wouldn't surprise me if he is just ignoring you.

So, I think that it is safe to say that you will never see this rumored letter.

Other then the golden letter, which I doubt you'll get, do you have anything else that is pertinent to this discussion?

ANY, ANY actual facts or even oddities that would lead one to believe a mistake was made in clearly identifying this car as the genuine 0846?

Also, how could this be 0003? Am I wrong in thinking the continuation chassis were built to P4 spec?

 

And /or Jim has put him on his ignore list which is what I would do if I was him

 

I can't help but think miurasv is considering the benefits of "faking" the authenticity of 0846 from the perspective of his own wallet. Perhaps going through the decade-long process of creating "truth" and "legitimacy" through outright, and crafty, "up-frontness" to fabricate potential profit would be something beneficial to an individual where the financial gain is worth the time invested? My guess is that Mr.G can, and does, find much better (and perhaps more profitable and efficient) ways to make a dollar. To others, a decade-long farce to the benefit of "25 million reasons" might seem plausible. In this particular case, I choose to disagree.

 

Also, JG has stated on the record, several times, that he plans to leave the cars to his children and that they will never be for sale as long as he can keep them.

 

Interesting observation but then again one must also consider miurasv's own profile where it states clearly he is looking for employment as an exotic car salesperson.

His questions in this thread to me have questionable motive, especially when you read this thread in conjunction with the one in respect of the restoration of 0858.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific/430667-el-waynes-allegation-i-am-shilling-talacrest.html

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0PUrNwvvBk

 

That's incredibly difficult to do, considering the length of this thread and the fact that people routinely bury the thread further with miscellaneous comments, photos and details not germane to the "debate."

 

Yes, reading is hard for some people.

 

I believe? somewhere in the thread is a summary of the important facts and evidence etc.

I'll try to find it later.

 

Love that.

 

Bump!

 

Bump!

 

I've twisted nothing.

You are now adding to the bull**** by suggesting that Mauro has confirmed the story. The Wayne Sparling story is more BS imo which is hearsay anyway. It also appears that Gerald Roush who reported the story may have been confused. Why is there no direct quote from Wayne Sparling himself? It's been said that he wasn't even at the Targa Florio in 1967.

This from Doug Nye, the highly regarded motoring historian and author of a number of Ferrari books, from the Autosport forum may make interesting reading:

Read all the exchanges here: http://forums.autosport.com/topic/59074-ferrari-330-p4/




"Re the definitive evidence recently claimed by Jim Glickenhaus to defend the claim that his ex-David Piper Ferrari replica is based upon the chassis remains of 1967 works team P4 chassis &#8216;0846&#8217;.

First let me recognize how easy it is for genuine enthusiasm to overwhelm accuracy in reporting kindly words from a friendly new acquaintance who is trying to be helpful concerning an enthusiast&#8217;s evident pride and joy&#8230;

Wayne Sparling is a much-respected and extremely popular &#8211; somewhat reclusive - figure in the American Ferrari world.

He is a faultlessly polite and nice man.

I fear Mr G. seems to have made the interpretations he wanted to make while confusing politeness for acquiescence to his claims.

Through mutual friends I have now double-checked with Mr Sparling (yesterday) &#8211; who does not wish to be drawn more publicly into this matter.

Contrary to Jim Glickenhaus&#8217;s statement earlier in this thread I understand that:

1 &#8211; Wayne Sparling NEVER attended a Sicilian Targa Florio.

2 &#8211; Wayne Sparling NEVER repaired Targa Florio damage to any Ferrari P3/4

3 &#8211; He does not remember any Targa Florio crash &#8220;quite well&#8221; &#8211; but he does recall a Daytona practice crash.

4 - Jim Glickenhaus claimed: "He told me and many others who were standing around my car at Quail that not only had the chassis of 0846 been damaged as I have described it in the 104+ pages I sent you but that HE HAD PERSONALLY REPAIRED THAT DAMAGE WITH BRAZING AND THAT THAT REPAIR AND MANY OTHER DETAILS OF 0846'S CHASSIS WERE KNOWN AND PERSONALLY DONE BY HIM...."

Wrong. This is actually Mr Sparling&#8217;s story in reference to the spider P4 crashed by Scarfiotti during Wednesday night practice before the 1967 Daytona 24-Hours. It appears that Gerald Roush also misunderstood Mr Sparling&#8217;s recollection.

5 - "Later in the day Dick Merritt commented: "If Wayne says that's the chassis then that's the chassis."

Presumably if Mr Sparling conversely says that's NOT the chassis he worked on then that's not the chassis?

Mr G. relates: - "As an aside he confirmed that the damage on 0856 caused when it backed into the wall and the repair to that sheet metal was exactly as he remembered it. 0856's sheet metal on the lawn at Quail is original and the hammer/repair marks are quite visible as well."

This is the correct story, as related. Since Mr Sparling repaired one works P4 at Daytona 1967, not two, this apparently excludes &#8216;0846&#8217; from having been that P4&#8230;

6 - "Wayne ... remembered that they received and installed the 603 type box before the race..."

A simple misunderstanding.

This story related instead to the time Mr Sparling switched the transaxle on NART's 365P2 which originally had a ZF unit. This was at Daytona in 1966 - NOT 1967 &#8211; when a P3 transaxle was fitted instead.

Mr G. seems to have interpreted this story as relating to his car's present transaxle. It does not.

7 - "At certain tracks where there were very long laps they ran a 3 litre engine in the P4. ...gas mileage was more important than power. An extra lap or two, enabled by better gas mileage on a very long track could mean minutes over the course of a race at Nuerburgring or Spa."

Poppycock! - a 3-litre would be better suited than a 4-litre to SPA???!!!!

The extra torque of the 4-litre would also be important at the Nurburgring. The top-endy 3-litre was not run in the P4s &#8211; this is at best another misunderstanding of whatever might have been said.

-------------------------------------------------

Now let's turn to Jim Glickenhaus&#8217;s celebrated 104-page documentation file.

It is very good.

It is very persuasive in parts and in fact far superior to the above misunderstanding/misreporting.

However &#8211; it prompts the following observations:

1 - while it includes numerous references to 'crash damage' and 'crash repairs' to the chassis, crucially not one photograph depicting any such damage is included.

This seems peculiar, since so many photographs of the restoration process are displayed, together with a number of archive shots from 1966-67 (incidentally including a GP Library copyright shot reproduced without our permission)

2 - Neither - again crucially - is there a single photograph depicting the car and/or chassis "as acquired" - before restoration commenced.

In establishing genuine provenance "as found" or "as acquired" photography is absolutely vital. I presume it exists. It would be interesting to see it &#8211; and to compare it with the car as now restored/rebuilt.

3 - Much is made of claimed "Le Mans scrutineering stamps" illustrated in the file.

Only ONE of the many stamps illustrated as appearing on Mr G.'s car resembles a genuine contemporary Le Mans scrutineering stamp.

We are advised that it appears on one cylinder head.

Other markings cited seem to vary from inspection material verification to register marks and casting numbers - nothing to do with the ACO so far as I can tell.

4 - Considerable play is made of a 12mm difference in wheelbase length between P3 and P4 chassis which is evident in this car.

To a non-Metric audience 12mm might sound truly substantial.

It is in fact just under half-an-inch.

I have measured many restored Ferrari wheelbases which differ side to side on the same car by far more than a half-inch&#8230;

A 12mm difference can easily be made during restoration/rebuilding to accommodate a changed engine&#8230;.one half of one inch, the width of a little finger nail, that&#8217;s all&#8230;

-------------------------------------------------------

I still do not exclude the remote possibility that there is some obscure substance to Mr Glickenhaus&#8217; claims to legitimize his replica car, but when evidence is misrepresented it is difficult for us who were around at the time the cars were racing &#8211; or who have been around the Ferrari world for very many years &#8211; to suspend our continuing disbelief...

Sorry to take up your time.

DCN"

 

That's one persons opinion as far as I read it. I'd still like to know what your personal interest in muddying the waters around 0846 is and why?

Why dredge up a debate that's been dead for pretty much 5 years?

You are very quick to throw around "BS this and BS that", yet you bring absolutely nothing new to this thread at all, except trying to pick up crumbs and try and turn them into a large cake.

What isn't in dispute is the apparent position of the Italian courts, you tend to forger the 0846 has been in and out of Italy quite a few times, Ferrari are aware of the car, have apparently given their blessing and what it is and what it isn't is of little consequence to anybody apparently, except you and I wonder why the sudden and rapid interest in this?