The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

When I am about to move on from this world I truly hope my final thoughts, words and concerns are not related to some old car parts I used to own.

It does come across a bit "Bobby Ewing shower scene" in neatly tying up the loose ends, and unfortunately I think adds rather than detracts doubt to the cause.

Far better to stay with the facts at hand, as of here and now and work backwards.

Jim owns a frame which accepts P4 running gear, that frame has period modifications to achieve this. Fact

That frame was purchased from David Piper. A man with long term associations with Ferrari's and in particular P3 and P4 versions. Fact

David Piper purchased that frame from Ferrari's frame suppliers, along with a number of others. Fact

This is then where the facts stop and the theories begin.

 

The long term associations of David Piper to the 412 P 0854, a car with a P3 frame is the most interesting. Piper says the frame he sold Jim is built to P4 plans. However, let's briefly explore the possibility that Jim is correct on this one and the frame he has is a P3 modified to accept a P4 engine. "If this is the case", I would say that the forensic evidence presented, and a much more likely story is that this frame is not 0846 but could well be that of 0854, which also had fire and crash damage and this damage was actually picked up in DP's ownership, or a spare replica frame he had made for that car as he is known to have done with other cars. Or just as the 1987 Doug Nye auction description of it states as posted by Paul S, a copy of 0854 with a frame manufactured to original form. The frame would then have been modified to accept the P4 engines that Piper had, just as 0846 had been by Ferrari and the damage evident on it picked up when Piper was racing it. 0854 was even in the UK in the seventies for a copy to have been made of it. The Certificate of Origin paperwork describing a 1967 P4 and the bill of sale, a copy of which we haven't seen, may have been written to actually assist Jim to get the car registered for road use to conform to the emission regulations that Jim believed he needed at the time of purchase and for which there is evidence in this thread.
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I think JG owns 0854 AND 0486 and the frames are very different....

 

1966 330 P3 0846 and 1967 412P 0854 used P3 frames made at the same time, 1966. When 0846 was transformed to 330 P3/4 late in 1966 its P3 frame was modified so apart from the mods, they should not be very different. If they are then one is a replica.

 

Let's see, - I repaired 0846 after the crash, see: that's my repair -

 

If you need to see to what degree DP stresses the details on P cars, take a good long hard look at that abomination he presided over for Talacrest and think again about your would have/could have/should have's.

I think its positive that you have finally climbed down from the fence, have finally declared you don't think this car is 0846 and are now planting the seed of 'replica' in the vain hope that it sticks. At least your position is now clear for all to see.

 

I do. True.

0854's P3 Chassis was manufactured in 1966. It was not modified and cannot accept a P4 engine.

0846's P3 Chassis was manufactured in 1966 and as per Ferrari was modified by Ferrari to a P 3/4 Chassis at a later point by changing, among other things, it's rear chassis tubes to accept a P4 engine. 0846's P 3/4 Chassis can accept both P3 and P4 engines. As Ferrari correctly pointed out to me my car is "unique".

 

True. Your car is "unique". However, it doesn't mean it's the original 0846. In fact Ferrari have pointed out in writing to you that your car is a fully rebuilt car, and as such, is not the original 0846 and asked you kindly to use your best endeavors to have the press clearly indicate this at least 7 years ago. Something you failed to do, ignored their request and then went on relentlessly to refer to it as the original 0846.

 

You obviously don't know the truth and are "out of the loop" and that is a fact. You must be a friend of Piper's or something. Piper did NOT buy 0846 direct from Ferrari as Tom got it first. Tom was very plugged in to buying former race chassis at very low cost from the factory and Enzo was his personal connection to what ever he needed. Enzo told him there were many haters at the company and to call him direct for anything he needed. He was scoffed at for buying chassis by ignorant Ferrari employees, just as Enzo told him would happen at the track one day. As Jim clearly pointed out previously, Piper did not even know how to set the engine for a photo...Tom was a man who knew he had little time who wanted to set the story straight. You obviously don't know Tom Meade or his Ferrari greatness if you wonder why his last thoughts were of the cars he loved so much. We are talking about history that Tom was keen enough to preserve. Years later when it became more appreciated, Piper got it. You can bet Tom made good money off of that deal and rarely came up short. He saved so many of these precious cars, including 0846, as he ALONE had the vision to do so in the beginning. The ones who didn't, have always had sour grapes for lunch as Tom got rich. How about those grapes old guys?

I have nothing but praise for the man I knew as a client and as a true friend. I imagine you DON'T have a set of P3/4 rims just sitting in your kitchen. I built a race transmission in my kitchen and any good car guy keeps the things closest to his heart where he can see them, as Tom did. So, yes, I will be thinking of my cars and designs at the last moment, too (and some blood related family, which Tom did not have any of sadly). Tom called it car cancer and I have it, too. Tom was also very secretive, so he would never tell anyone what was in the back under cover, so they could return and steal the chassis. Seriously! Just as Tom would not just give details of our Thomassima IV project or P3/4 story to press eager to make a buck at exposing things way beyond their scope. Also by the way, how is a GTO with no top, also know as a Nembo a copy? Arguably one of the prettiest of the Farrari's and copied as NART Spider. That was a copy of Tom's work after the designer saw the three Nembo's. People with those comments obviously are trying to make a name for themselves in a sad way. When your story gets told on "60 Minutes," cover story of "Road and Track," and you have spoke with Enzo and have his personal phone number, then your comments will have a little merit in the Ferrari world. Sadly until then, more sour grapes for those who never touched Tom's greatness. As a designer and as a Ferrari broker, having sold 1500 Ferraris and about 50 personalized customs, Tom's name is beyond touching by any commentators who question the truth, which has now come to light, as Tom wished. RIP Tom Meade my friend!!! You and Enzo are laughing about this now in Italian, naturally. Haters are why the public get's left out of these kind of historical important facts. Tom didn't need to waist his time with haters, which he was well aware of. Tom did not like the P4 copies, as he put it, which Piper came up with. They were not built at the Factory were they? Waters down the originals, Tom said. Sad that there are people with agendas questioning the truth. But, that's what some people do.

 

Read his post again. That's not what he said. He said David Piper bought the frame from Ferrari's frame suppliers.

 

For the sake of clarity... I am Josh and I was quite clear in description of how everything happened. Read Jim's page again. I don't have time to get caught up in this, just as Tom didn't. Tom and I needed full focus, as I still do, on building cars. Facts are facts. We all know our part here and yours is clear. Some of us are most concerned with the truth and preserving it. Enjoy reading the truth again.

Ciao, Ciao

 

In my files on these two cars I cannot locate a copy of the Doug Nye auction description. Can you or someone post this. Thanks tongascrew

 

To clarify to you Josh, I have never met or spoken to any of the people in the chain of ownership of Jims car.

My last post was simply listing the facts at hand for which there is no dispute. Read it again.

Until I started reading this thread I had never heard of Mr Meade either, I am sure he was a passionate race car owner/builder, its such a pity he did not make the information available far earlier than on his deathbed and just to you, and had it recorded/ published for all to see/hear as it would have helped dispel much of the questions that surround Jims car and his legacy of 0846 of the 60s
As it is its has probably just added more doubt in the minds of some of readers of this thread about the 0846 of the here and now, and the one from the 60s.

If you have not done so before, maybe you can introduce yourself to the readers of this thread to understand your connection in the saga

 

Point is if you look at the chassis and the facts present today, without all the stories and without all the papers, the evidence in that frame clearly points to 0846.

Once you put in all the stories, mostly one from the man who originally saved it, it becomes crystal clear.

As said Mr. Meade did not want to get pulled into the hoopla as Josh doesn't due to the distraction.

Instead of discovering the truth and being glad that someone had the forethought to save the car.

And doing all they can to distract and keep the car from being known as it rightfully should be known as. Without the fog of doubt caused by naysayers with an agenda.

People that get to see this car should be able to enjoy it for what it is, the genuine Ferrari P3/4 0846 that survived.

 

Thank You, Josh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Perhaps this is the crux of your argument:
"your car is a fully rebuilt car, and as such, is not the original 0846"

I would ask then, how many old race cars are there that have survived as the original? There are so many that have been crashed and rebuilt, had new bodies made to repair the destroyed one, had new engines because they threw a rod....

what is "original"?

 

How did the above get to the elaborate story that's just been posted? Below is a piece of it. Note well the sentence in bold where the story seems to have changed/developed. Please can you clarify, Jim?

"This brought Tom to the attention of a greedy mob boss, who forced Tom out of his shop for one and a half years after attempting hits on Tom and his mother. Tom was forced to leave many things behind in a rush, including 0846 and the P2/3 parked next to it out back. Tom returned to his shop only after the mobster was killed by decapitation after rear-ending a flatbed truck, in a car crash. Fortunately, when Tom returned the two rough chassis and their parts were still there. Tom was in need of cash, having lost his business for so long, so he ended up selling both 0846 and the P2/3. Tom sold them to a chassis builder who had just been commissioned to fabricate three P4 chassis for David Piper to do some knock offs with, as Tom put it. Tom did not mince words, he told me that he did not like Piper because he copied the work of others. Something Tom and I felt very strongly about was to always be original and never, ever, make a copy or false car."

 

...and he didn't tell you the truth over the years you spoke many times?

"He told me this 0846 saga, worried that it might be lost if he passed without explaining what happened, for the sake of its current owner to know the truth one day."

 

Oh, so tempting & perhaps most helpful post in last 6 months.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist

 

The two chassis were 0846 and the P2/3. What's the big deal?

 

And miss out on Miura SVU?

 

The appropriate question here should be what is the original? Ferrari said Jim's car is not the original 0846. Ferrari would not have asked Jim to kindly use his best endeavors to have the press clearly indicate this if his car was merely not original as many Ferrari racing cars are not but most of them are the original.

 

0858

 

The man is his cause's worst enemy.

 

Thank you for the kind invitation. I met Tom a fateful first night back in my home town of Westwood, Ca in May of 2009. We became close friends as we worked side by side developing and I was hired to replace the tub designed by a prominent race engineer and built into a boxy wood plug. Tom knew no straight lines and hated the boxy shape which he wanted to flow like water. That's were I came in as my carbon work is the best. I was hired to sculpt a tub plug that fit Tom's need for curvy flowing vision and re-engineer it to be better. I ended up managing the many vendors involved and dispensed the ones who I could replace and out do. Read Chad Glass's (Ferrarichat and blog) about the steering wheel I engineered and sculpted with leaded crystal, mastodon ivory etc., the leaded crystal taillight I cast with my techniques and design enhancements of the form. I handled all carbon aspects and built a beautiful a-pillar assembly, scoops and windshield/window bucks. Many aspects the press was not trusted with. In fact, the reason you have NOT heard of me was sadly a little selfish on Tom's part. He didn't want to share me as he knew I could and have literally built entire supercars personally. I understood the value of working with the master, so I let that slide as it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to workwith, and be respected and trusted, by Tom Meade. I had built about a half dozen cars, and as an Industrial Designer have the training it takes to handle and manage all aspects of a ground-up build. Tom and I grew very close and spent more time together than Tom spent with everyone else many times over...we spent years from waking until sleep building his Thomassima IIII (that is how Tom wanted it not IV). Tom trusted me enough to tell me what song he wanted to hear, if I could be there, when he died. I sadly had that obligation to my friend on August 1st, as I was beside his side until his last breath. Tom told only one person on this earth the last song he wanted and trusted that I would make that happen, as I had for years. I made that happen for my friend and played "Dark Side of the Moon.... I'm not afraid to die any time will do..." Tom loved Pink Floyd and that was his last request trusted to me. Tom was a friend, a client, a mentor and I miss him dearly. He is missed dearly. A true gentleman who was an honor to know and learn from. Tom and I flew together every day in car fantasy land where we brought these visions to reality and sadly did not complete the car. However, I put a smile on Tom's face every day and he got to see many of his visions come to reality, which obviously gave him great joy. That was my job and I never let Tom down by not coming through. That's why he kept me secret all of this time...he didn't want to share his secret weapon.
I'm doing my own thing now building another car for myself. This one is in honor of Tom. I would be Farrari powered ground-up including a core based tub that is organic and shapely and the driver fits in like a glove. Be under 2000 lbs and reminiscent of the vintage Ferrari styling Tom and I loved so much. Tom's favorite Ferrari of all time?... who else would he tell? It was the pontoon fender Testarossa.
I don't mean to step on any toes here and really just want to focus on my work...a Ferrari powered supercar that speaks of vintage Ferrari styling of the most sexy era to grace Ferrari's, the fifties and sixties. I need to focus, as did Tom. Out of respect for my friend Tom, I have kept very quiet until now, since his passing. But now is my time now and the torch has been passed and that is what Tom wanted and prepared me for each day we worked. I miss him.

Ciao, Ciao