Phenom 300 vs Citation cj4

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Dmark1, by any chance was the one you saw an original CitationJet being upgraded (one of the 2 tube Honeywell one)?


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Yep, that was the one! Finished it last month I believe.

 

No one has changed from the Pro Line to the G1000 yet,,, just the 2 tube Honeywell.

There is no more capability in the G1000 than the Pro Line 21 system save the SVT pretty pictures.

 

I'll say it again...... Then why are all the manufacturers switching?

Also, we're talking G3000..

 

Since the "big" corporate jets aren't switching to Garmin this may have a lot more to do with features at a price point. Years back had a conversation at Learjet where the point being made was that more than anything else there were 2 factors that drove the ability to make a price point on a new aircraft program: engines and avionics suite.

Jeff

 

FIFY

And so what? If my Phenom 300 does 450 knots at 45K', what makes it so different from a "big" jet?

One day they will build planes with no windows and the whole flight will be done using synthetic vs.

 

Big = Citation 10, Challenger 350, Global in any iteration, Falcon 2000 and up, Gulfstream 280 and up. These are all designed for coast-to-coast/trans oceanic missions with triple nav systems. Sure don't see any of them abandoning Honeywell and Collins anytime soon.

Garmin has done a wonderful job picking up the lower end of the jet market and creeping upward into the better low end. Maybe someday down the road they will further extend upward and become the 3rd player with Honeywell and Collins for the serious machinery but it hasn't happened yet.

Jeff

 

Sounds like your wet dream. Maybe you won't even HAVE to be a pilot.

 

G5000 is in Citation X since 2010

 

+1

 

I think both sides of the argument may be missing the possibility that the manufacturer may have exclusivity contracts with avionics companies.

 

Think it's more what Jeff said about meeting a price point. Embraer is using the G3000 for the Phenoms, Proline Fusion for the Legacy 450/500 and Honeywell Primus Elite for the Legacy 650. So they are pretty manufacturer agnostic.


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The reason many of them are switching to G3000 is the price. Also, there are a lot of TBM or Meridian guys upgrading to jets and they are afraid of Proline 21 (and comfortable with Garmin).

The Phenom 300 with G3000 is a heck of a plane, but I can't pull the trigger on the purchase with the G3000. It is a GPS based navigation system, not an FMS based. Garmin has done a good job making it look like an FMS, but it isn't. One of the biggest downfalls is that it can't do VNAV climbs. Try departing LA or Vegas or Teteboro, single pilot in a high performance jet without the aid of VNAV on the departure procedure. Good luck.

With the G3000, you have to look up Vspeeds and TOFL in a book (by altitude, weight and temperature) and enter them in manually. With Proline 21, you type in the weight and runway and bang, it does the rest. It may sound small, but I can't imagine going back to paper.

The G1000 was a joke in the jet environment, the G3000 is acceptable, but still not as good as Proline 21. I have no experience with the G5000, maybe it is an FMS based system.

If you buy a SP jet and operate out of small airports, in light traffic areas and mostly VFR conditions, then a G3000 with synthetic vision is perfect. If operate in the opposite conditions, then a Proline 21 flight deck without synthetic vision will make your life a lot easier.

 

From the Phenom 300 Flight Planning Guide:
High Speed Cruise (ISA)
16000 pounds - 401 knots
15000 pounds - 416 knots
14000 pounds - 432 knots

Even just before it ran out of fuel at FL450 it won't do 450. And with ISA + temperatures being common, the speeds will be a few knots slower than what is listed.

I like the Phenom 300, but just want to keep the facts straight.

 

Quite a nice first post sir. Welcome aboard.

 

I fly my PC12NG single pilot out of PDK in Atlanta. Arguably the busiest airspace in the world. How do I do it then? Most of my trips are NYC (TEB), O'Hare, South Florida and the ski resorts.

All manufacturers are switching to G3000. I flew Citation X not long ago with G3000. Proline 21 might as well run on coal. I'm not the one you need to convince. Just look at the industry. Nobody is building new plane with Proline 21.

 

I was chatting with a good friend of mine about the CJ3, which has Proline 21. His view was that the Proline 21 was great if you have an APU and a second pilot, but not so great in the single pilot CJ environment.

I only have minimal Proline 21 experience, myself, and we always had an APU and two pilots...

 

That would have to make a huge difference in operating cost.

 

There is a "low utilization" inspection program available for many of the Citation models which eliminates (or greatly extends) many of the calendar items. I don't know if it's available for the CJ series or not.

http://www.baconaviation.com/

EDIT: Apparently not for the CJ series, at least right now.

 

Because you are flying DOG slow and you don't have the climb performance where "at or below" altitudes make a difference. You will always be BELOW. When you are in a high performance jet, single pilot, pulling the power back to stay below 250 KIAS, and climbing at 5000+ fpm, it makes a difference.

Wait a minute, you have a PC-12NG, and that has VNAV climbs. Don't you use that feature?

Also, PDK has no DPs, so you wouldn't use it there. O'Hare does, but no altitude restrictions. TEB does, but again, not a big issue in a single engine turbo prop.

BTW, the G3000 has VNAV climbs in the M2, and the Phenom 300 gets it 4th quarter 2015. Performance database feature comes in 2016. Garmin is closing the gap with the missing features.

Saying the Proline 21 "might as well run on coal" shows your ignorance of the system. It is a fantastic system. Its replacement is the Proline Fusion. Which manufacturers ARE building new planes with (Legacy 450 and 500 for starters).

 

Yes I use VNAV climbs.

Everyone is at 13K 30-40 minutes out of TEB. Just check FA. It's the same for everyone.

What SP jet is climbing at 5000fpm? None that I've flown. Especially once you get above 5k-6k. Down low my PC12 climbs 2500-3000fpm but tapers off to 1500 up high.

I'm not a hater of Proline21 and yes I am ignorant to it. I just started flying in 2007 but have over 3000 hours just flying myself around. I'd buy a plane with Proline but would rather have Garmin. The Garmin 5000 in the Citation line is incredible. CJ3+ or Phenom 300 is my next plane.

Like I said though.... Atlanta is an anomaly in aviation. PC12 is the perfect plane for in and out of Atlanta.

 

At typical operating weights, my Premier IA climbs 5000 fpm through 5K, then 4000 fpm through 10K. I took a test flight in a Phenom 300 a few weeks ago and it does just as good. It does 4050 fpm at max gross, so at typical weights, expect 5000-5500.

Just signed a contract on a Phenom 300 today, so I will be G3000 proficient later this year!

I did a lot of my helicopter training at PDK with Prestige Helicopters, so I used to fly into PDK a lot. I always liked the airport (and area).

 

Well why you arguing with me then? Hell man. Why not buy and CJ4 if you like Proline so much?

Congrats on the 300. It's my favorite.

 

Not Arguing with you at all. I enjoy discussing things with you.

I do like Proline 21 and I generally do like the CJ4 (especially the price), but I can't handle the small diameter tube. Coming from the Premier (5'5" tall x 5'6" wide), going down to the size of the Phenom is all I can handle. The CJ series tube is another notch smaller than the Phenom, so going down 2 notches is too much! I know you talked about a CJ3+, but you and your passengers need to sit in it (and not for 5 minutes on the ground). You are used to the PC-12 and I know you won't be happy with the CJ tube (or the door or the baggage). The Phenom is pretty darn close to what you are used to.

I have watched the 300 since the G1000 days, but there was no way I could handle the G1000 in a jet (it just can't do too many things I need). With the G3000 and the few missing features coming soon, I am ready to make the change. I would have been very happy with Proline Fusion also, but that is not a choice.