MP4 prices are really plummeting on resale

They are trying so hard to make sales .... I wonder how many of these oddball re-hashes they can sell ?
The old car looked better ... this is weird looking. The Huracan is selling like hot-cakes !

 

I think the Huracan will hurt Mac sales a bit. It's the new "anti-Ferrari".

 

Steel brakes are a no-cost option if you want them. There are a few similar no-cost options. For example you can go from the standard full-Alcantara interior to a full leather or a leather & Alcantara for no cost. You can go from the Pirelli Corsa tires to the 12C's P-Zeros for no cost.

I drove a 650S last weekend. It is absolutely spectacular. A big upgrade over the 12C which was already pretty darn good. In a nutshell here are the improvements you can feel from driving it:

1. More torque - it was already a fast car but the additional torque makes pulling away from a stop sign feel more effortless.

2. Way better carbon ceramic brakes. I have CCBs on my 12C Spider and these feel even better than the CCBs on my 458 Spider. They're just incredible. The best brakes I've ever felt. Super progressive with incredible stopping power when you push hard yet you can make silky smooth stops from slow speeds. The old CCBs had the same amazing bite but they also bit hard when you wanted softer stops after a slight dead zone. These new brakes (actually just changes to how the boosters work) will be amazing on the road and on the track. Even better than the best Porsche brakes from what I can tell. Just amazing.

3. The new tires are awesome. Way more grip.

4. An even more incredible suspension. Ok, McLaren already had the best suspension but they've somehow made it even better. It feels more planted and tighter yet the harshness of hard bumps are somehow smoothed out even more. I just can't explain it. You get all the feel of the road that you need (especially from the new tires and tweaked steering) but you get less "clunk" when you go over bumps. Apparently they did this by moving a liquid reservoir and changing how the shocks mount to the carbon chassis.

5. Better gadgets. Electric steering column (option), satellite radio (included) and backup camera (option).

6. I like the styling. Those pictures don't do the car justice. It looks great in person. Yes if you stop and stare at that one angle where the honeycomb grill looks like it never ends then you think the car is ugly. The same can be said for the 458 Spider - don't spend too much time looking at the catfish whiskers But as you move around the 650S there are so many angles where it just looks great - especially with the carbon fibre bumpers, side intakes and diamond-cut wheels.

7. It's just more fun to drive. I drove my 12C to work yesterday and when I got home I thought to myself 'if I wasn't fortunate enough to be able to upgrade to the 650S I'd still be happy with this car for many years' but the 650S is a really exciting car to drive and I think McLaren is on their way to great success.

I decided to buy the 650S Spider. With all the options, gadgets and carbon it's just under $350k. A 458 Spider configured the same way would be just as expensive. I've ordered the 650S in pearl white with lots of carbon on it. If I had done my 458 Spider in Bianco Italia (I chickened out at the $19,000 up charge for the paint!) and added a carbon rear bumper (which I think the Bianco Italia needed but was not necessary on the Rosso Corsa I ended up ordering) and carbon "whiskers" it would have cost over $370k. In the meantime the 650S is a way faster car that will be awesome on road and track.
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650S is actually getting a lot of positive remarks from the Lamborghini crowd if you are active on those boards.

 

M3 flat out in 4th gear vs 650S at Laguna Seca.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f2wHxN5XtI[/ame]

 

12C production ending, however some more free updates and discounts on new options coming to 12C owners. Also says the have 6 months of orders already. 12Cs were around 1200/year, so 600 would be a pretty good start. Lambo had 900 for the Huracan and that was a car with 10 years worth of built up demand.

From ML:

 

"Meanwhile, the final piece of news I wanted to share with you is regarding 12C production which we have decided to cease in light of the success of 650S. The new car has been so well received since its unveiling at the Geneva Motor Show (we already have a six month order bank) we will focus all our capacity at the McLaren Production Centre on 650S."

WHAT BS!!!!!

They didn't want to tell 12c owners for months (and people looking at 12c's now stacked up on dealer lots) their cars are obsolete.

Oh BTW... You know when we said the 650s was not a replacement for the 12c? Well, we were just kidding. We are no longer making your car because no one wants it anymore.

Thanks. Have a nice day.



What a load. The word is chutzpah. How they can treat their owners with such little regard is beyond me.

 

I'm just really starting to get sick of the styling direction of the whole McLaren fleet. Sure the performance is there but to me it looks like you could take all three of their cars to West Coast Customs and come out with three totally new cars with similar aspects, proportions and shapes.

I wish they just would have took the F1 and say where can we go from here without Plagiarizing too much. Not exactly a new Millenium version of the F1 - just the heritage passed along tastefully like Enzo and Pinninfarina would have agreed to do.

The MP4 sure is a hell of a fun car to drive but even at those used prices I'd rather have the GT3-4.0 in my Driving Collection.

Who knows how McLaren will treat their MP4 owner's on down the line. If they do as they have with the F1 it should be very well. Hell they didn't even charge for the ECU upgrade that gave more power correct(?) or `em I getting that confused with something else?

 

I think it's reasonable for them to not have expected the 650S to sell so well at a higher price point.

What would you have preferred they do? Not produced the 650S?

The 12C only had a couple more years in it, at best.

 

Maybe I'm reading this statement incorrectly, but to me this implies that MP4s are currently at the same price point as Porsche GT3 RS 4.0s. I doubt they are.

 

Of course they had no choice. The problem is they lied to their existing customers.

What they should have done (but couldn't because the 12 c just isn't selling well enough) is to keep 12 c production the 5 years they promised and have the 650s as a second more hard core model.

Or, they could have just been honest and told everyone a year ago a new model dropping and replacing the 12c was coming.

For months they kept saying publicly the 12 c is not dead --- even in Geneva. Now it is. Today is the first day they have said so. And the reason is the 650s is so good they can't sell 12c's anymore? Thanks for just telling everyone the car is obsolete.

What a load of BS. No wonder McLaren has such a lousy reputation for Marketing. This isn't Marketing. It's bad news to their best customers politically spun into an email.

 

It's not Ron's fault if the customers just don't get it.
Now that he's got the car right he needs to redesign the customer.

 

like I said before McLaren will not be making production based cars within 5 years. The car biz is a tough one and competition is fierce in this segment.

 

If I knew you in person I'd be happy to bet against you on that.

 

Wow, that's a big chip on you shoulder Mayor. Did McLaren shoot your puppy? It feels like every Mac thread has you coming in a beating the crap out of them followed by some back-handed compliments about how good their cars are how competition is good for Ferrari owners. I'm a McLaren customer and I don't feel they've done anything wrong to me. In fact they're offering me more upgrades to the 12C (continuing what they've been doing since the car first came out) and a chance to get the factory-optioned satellite radio and a backup camera installed at my dealer at a reasonable price. Seems like win-win to me. I've never seen Ferrari do anything as customer-friendly as this not that I think Ferrari needs to. It's a nice gesture from McLaren but they've been providing various upgrades to the 12C since the original cars shipped.

I'm a fan (and devoted customer) of both Ferrari and McLaren so I try to be completely objective about them. I don't feel that they lied about anything.

What they actually said when they announced the 650S was they were stopping production of the 12C while they built up inventory of the 650S. If, when they were satisfied they had built enough 650S, customers continued to want 12Cs they would build them (because the price difference in some markets is so extreme because of taxes and tariffs that they needed to still offer the lower-priced car) and that they would monitor the situation and make a final decision down the road. But if nobody ordered the 12C they would stop building it.

So demand dropped off. Apparently people were more than willing to pay the extra price for the 650S because... newer/better/upgraded model of already expensive car. Also if you optioned up the 12C to be the same as the 650S then you ended up at about the same price anyway despite the higher MSRP of the 650S. So they're clearly making more money on 650S because customers are buying all those options anyway.

If demand cools for the 650S in countries with those high tariffs then I expect they'll offer a special version of the car with lower-cost options such as iron brakes, non-Alcantara interior and the original P-Zero tires (instead of Corsas) for those markets priced closer to the former price of the 12C. That's smarter than building two models especially as the engine and suspensions in the 650S are highly modified from the ones in the 12C. In the USA you can order those things as no-cost options but you don't save any money doing so. Those are the things that make the base price of the 650S different from the 12C. McLaren priced carbon ceramic brakes at around $15k on the 12C.

But you can build a nicely configured 650S Spider for the same price as, or even less than, a similarly-configured 12C Spider so there's no need to have the 12C in the USA unless you're buying an absolute base car which I'm fairly certain nobody does.

 

No, I once saw greatness and the chance to really change the way sports cars are made and sold and now I only see more of the same and failure.

Lying to customers about future product plans so you can move unsold cars off the lot, not paying attention to the market feeling you think you know better, poor communication, non-existent marketing plans -- this is no way to build brand loyalty.

I think they make great cars. I think they run a lousy business.

 

Who lied? If I walk into a Ferrari dealer and tell them I want a 458 the day before the replacement launch, will they tell me to hold off on my order? That's laughable at best.

If you don't know new models are coming -- after all, they said every year there would be a new car -- then you live under a rock. The 650S mules were seen for nearly a year before it showed up and everyone knew a facelift was coming.

Are Aventador coupe and roadster owners mad that Lamborghini didn't tell them a 50th Anniversary car was coming with more aggressive bumpers?

 

First phrase I agree with and mission accomplished. The 12C has lighter weight, more rigidity, more power and more performance than the 458, with more technology like carbon fiber monocell and active aero. Problem is that the segment is very full and the demand is limited and it really appears that most buyers want the recognition of a Ferrari and the subjective joy it brings with a 9000 rpm NA V8 and higher ratio steering and more dramatic (arguably better) looks.

As for marketing and the product itself building brand loyalty, how did that work out on your 458 purchases?

 

You'll be sitting on a very long waiting list which you won't really get on unless you buy a used car (that you're going to overpay for and lose serious money on depreciation) that you'll have to trade back to them for way, way less money (with enough margin below the retail value so they can sell it at a profit to the next guy who wants to get on that still painfully long list) when your new car is ready. Also they're going to explain to you that Ferrari requires a minimum dollar value in extra options in order to take your order in the first place and drive up the cost of your car - which won't matter because there are so many essential things that are options so you'll fine plenty of reason to give them an extra $40,000. But eventually you'll get an awesome car built to your spec and if you were able to get a new one at MSRP and get in again early on the next one you can drive Ferraris almost for free*

Also you're going to be really frustrated that rich old codgers, who barely drive the cars and mostly just collect them, are the first 20 guys in line no matter how much you spend so you won't see your car for quite some time because even the largest dealers only get 1 or 2 a month of the newest models for the first year or two. Of course before long one of those rich old codgers (likely the guy who actually owns the dealership or who they made an unwritten agreement with) is going to sell his car back to the dealer at a profit and it will show up as a slightly-used example in the showroom asking $60,000 over MSRP. Oddly enough it will be a very lightly-optioned vehicle selling for more than the MSRP of a very heavily optioned vehicle. You'll scratch your head and wonder how that was even possible given the fact the dealer told you that you HAD to buy a certain dollar amount of options.... hmmmm?

*this only applies to the mid-engine V8 spiders and only if you don't go over 4,000** miles in it. For all other Ferraris you're going to see regular good old motorcar depreciation

**with each new model this number seems to go down further and further

BTW I went the buy-an-FF route to move up on the buy a factory-ordered new 458 Spider at MSRP list and I don't regret it one bit. I love both cars!

Back to McLaren... I bought a 12C Spider in December 2013 and I'm upgrading it to a 650S Spider. I don't regret that one bit either. If I didn't have the money to upgrade to the 650S, I'd still be perfectly happy with the 12C Spider and I'd be keeping it for a long time. It's an amazing car. I get more enjoyment out of it than I do with the 458 Spider but I still love them both.

I don't get all the "McLaren screwed its customers" crap. I don't feel screwed in any way. They took the 12C and changed out 25% of the parts and put a new name on it. They said they were stopping production of the 12C to build up inventory of the 650S and, IF there was demand they would build 12C alongside 650S later in the year. Well, the demand clearly wasn't there. To say they said anything other than that is just malicious distortion of the truth - at least that's my polite phrase for it

As for doubting the order book statement there's no reason to do that other than make yet another "malicious distortion of the truth". First of all McLaren's orders come from dealers, not end-customers. Dealers love the car and have committed to 6 months worth already so there's no capacity to make 12Cs anyway. So yes you can walk into a store and order one (or buy one the dealer ordered that's already on the way) in under 6 months. But that probably won't last long. I suspect with the rave reviews, and the fact that the 650S Spider frankly kicks the **** out of the 458 Spider, they'll sell very well until Ferrari's replacement is readily available in 4 years time. I say 4 years because even if you gave a dealer your deposit today you likely won't see your 458 Spider replacement car until 2018 unless you're one of those rich old codgers I talked about earlier who might see one the first year. US customer shipments of new Ferraris tend to lag other markets by six months or so.

What's the big deal? The change to the 650S doesn't diminish the existing 12Cs in any way and in my opinion the rave reviews it's getting, alongside the rave reviews the P1 is getting, and the additional upgrades still coming for 12C, will only shine more light on what great cars they're making. That rising tide will raise all the boats and, despite what Mayor says, I think Mclaren have learned a lot and have turned the corner toward being a successful exotic car manufacturer and brand.

I suspect that if McLaren succeeds in establishing the 650S, and can keep up with the demand, it is possible that Ferrari will once again restart the yearly raising of production numbers for their cars to try to keep customers from defecting to another brand that outperforms them and is easier to obtain. But I don't have a clear crystal ball on this. They might find some other way to increase profits without increasing volume but they didn't need to do it this year or next year because (a) the LaFerrari and (b) a great overall product mix. They're on an amazing roll right now. McLaren will learn from Ferrari but not overnight. In the meantime McLaren were profitable this year which is pretty impressive for what is essentially a start-up operation within their group of companies.

Oh I saw more "malicious distortion" around the idea they hadn't sold out the P1. Seriously guys? Just go try to give a McLaren dealer your US$360,000 deposit on a P1 and see if they'll actually take it.

 

Thanks for the balanced report and good for you to be able to truly enjoy both F and M cars. And it's good (and rare) to hear an actual Ferrari buyer admit what I've always figured was true, that the true cost of ownership of a V8 Ferrari can be significant, from buying a used car at a premium, or a V-12 car that will depreciate in order to get an order that the dealership will actually honor on any realistic timetable. My personal friends have had identical experiences, so that the actual cost of ownership of a Ferrari is not exactly cost-free. And even the very privileged few who get a new car early in the product cycle have to drive it very few miles in order to get money back out a year later.

I think it just costs a hell of a lot of money to drive a new exotic, one way or another, and that is a big shock to those who may think that the myth of buying a new exotic and reselling at MSRP is real.

Finally, to dump a 12C after a year when you find out other people are selling for $50-100K less than MSRP is idiotic or evidence that you don't care about the money. If you genuinely liked the car, why not keep it for more years and allow the depreciation per year to get to a sensible level? The fact that others are selling low should not affect your enjoyment of the car one iota. And if you can simply easily afford to spend what it takes to have the latest and greatest, I don't see you whining too much about the expense of first-year depreciation.

 

Couldn't agree more

Love my 12C spider

 

and here is the reason why values will plummet further
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/cats-exotics/443472-its-way.html

The Ferrari B*tch slap, how many customers does it take?

 

You need Lamborghini

 

Lambo! Why didn't I think of that! Yeah, my 2006 Gallardo (bought new) was a great experience when I was told it was another $100K plus my trade 18 months in if I wanted an LP560.

 

You know I seriously asked in the Lambo thread comments about getting a used Murci. I saw one going down Santa Monica Blvd and I thought it looked and sounded awesome.

The Aventador doesn't do it for me though. I'm not sure why.