The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

So there is some evidence of such things happening, now if the stamps can be identified as being stamps and not just casting marks, and other period LM cars have the same stamps then that indicates that the block may well have been at Le Mans at least, in which car though is another matter.

 

Well its important to Jim at least, as its part of his case in his claim that the car is based on the remains of the original 0846, and utilises parts that ran at Le Mans in period.

Its of far less importance if its simply a great replica built from period ferrari components of a similar design of those used in such cars back then.

 

No need to be confused any more. 1966 312 F1 2 valve tipo 218 engine had inlets between the heads. The engine is F1, just as David Piper said and not P4 as Jim claims. Next up, the chassis.
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Thanks Steve.

We need to remember that Jim bought a huge bunch of spares for these cars. I assume that is where the heads come from. I believe, but might be mistaken, that the heads have Le Mans stampings (they will not be casting marks, but stampings) and so the heads have more than likely done a lap of Le Mans at some stage, but in which car ... who knows?

So I await your chassis period photos. The photos of the engines have been good and useful.
Pete
ps: The fact that these heads fit on the block along with the correct crank AND bolt to the modified bulkhead shows that the dimensions of the block have to be correct. Therefore the blocks are for all intended purposes interchangeable between F1 and P4. Still like to know more about that casting difference. Maybe later blocks had this curved rib or earlier blocks??

Shows how uncompetitive Ferrari F1 was at that time that basically the same engine can withstand 24 hours of abuse ...

 

PSK, can you identify which Le Mans stamps you mean? I cannot find actual stamps, just casting marks in the pdf but maybe I cannot see the wood for the trees, if there are stamps then how have they been proven to be linked to Le Mans? and which years? and what do they signify?

 

Miura

Is your point of this whole engine thing to prove that the motor is not a P4 block so therefore it can't be 0846?

Prove the point all you want but realize that it also just strengthens the argument that 0858 is not a P4.

Even more so, as even if it is marked as an F1 casing, at least this motor is built up into the right configuration whereas a Can Am set up motor for a P4 is not correct anyway you slice it. Numbers aren't right, build isn't right.

What I don't think you get is Jim did the best he could to assemble the best car he could with the parts that he had. He has never claimed it to be perfect. Just what it is and I feel he explained it the best he could within the knowledge of his research.

Whereas 0858 was disassembling a original car for a fascimile. But I'm glad you are feeling so victorious trying to dis credit someone that built something, to defend people that tore something apart.

It's pretty comical everytime you let out a much awaited victory cry with the enthusiasm of a kid at christmas. Yeah!

Type all you want. I doubt you have ever built anything like Jim has that has enriched the Ferrari community and I bet you never will.

On the other hand, fair enough, I have never destroyed a piece of original Ferrari History and I bet I never will.

You seem to think Jim is lying. If the car is not real, which I doubt, I also doubt that Jim is lying about it. He bought what he thought was a replica and found things that made him think it is not. Due to his research he believes these things to be true. You seem to think Jim is covering stuff up and lying etc. and will stop at nothing to bust him in these lies. I don't belive for one second Jim is knowingly trying to pass off a fake, whereas Talacrest knew what they had, a Can Am, And faked it anyway when they made it a P4.

I guess it matters what you feel is important to the preservation of Ferrari.

Even if this is a full blown replica with absolutely zero original Ferrari, Jim has done a much more honorable thing here with the quality of its construction, then Talacrest did with the greediness of their deconstruction. You can never change those facts.

 

Page 82 of the PDF, " scrutineering stamp Le Mans 67
Pete

 

See page 116 of the PDF
Pete

 

Vincent you do tend have an unusual take on things at times.

0858 is a Ferrari and always has been with continuous history. There can be no dispute about that, its been a P4,its been a Can Am based on a P4, now its a mix of both.

Jims is a replica built from mainly period ferrari parts of various tipo's, he is in the belief that the frame may once have been related to that of the original 0846 and that the engine block/heads may once have been at Le Mans in some guise.

Complete chalk and cheese cars.

I don't think anyone should be accused of lies, just differing viewpoints based on the facts at hand, hence its a debate as per the thread title, with all sides putting forward their views and findings and discussions then raised as a result.

I doubt when Jim made a start on his car he was doing it for the honour of Ferrari! he wanted to own a P3/4 spec car and built himself one for his own pleasure, and good on him.

 

Thanks, some of those are indented rather than raised so not part of the casting process fair enough (some though are casting marks on later pages) but what do they signify? and why is Jim in the belief they are related to Le Mans? again I cannot find where that is proven.

 

If you're talking about page 116 there's nothing whatsoever to do with 0846 on that page. The chassis is 0818.

 

The block in 0003 is 312 F1, not P4. 0858 was a P4 that was reconfigured to enter Can Am races that has now been reconfigured back to P4 retaining its 4.2 capacity. All the Can Am parts have been conserved and not destroyed. The tipo 247 350 Can Am engine is a bored out tipo 237 330 P4 engine. That 0858 has been both a P4 and a Can Am is a fact that cannot be denied and in retaining its 4.2 capacity it can be celebrated in both its forms, as it should be.

Why has the vendor and re-commissioner of 0858 to P4 have to be considered greedy for doing what most people would have done? It was a no brainer. Jim himself spoke to Classiche about converting 0858 back to P4. Why would he do that if he had no intention of doing it? He has a track record second to none in rebodying perfect cars in a homage to the P4 form. Do you really think he would have left 0858, a car that was born as one of only 3 P4s, a car considered by many to be the most beautiful ever made, was victorious in races as a P4 and contributed to the '67 World Championship, a car that he so clearly loves, as a nowhere near as desirable Can Am car?

Regarding 0003 I'm afraid that there is, after nearly 14 years, no conclusive proof that it is the original 0846. Jim can lavish all the care in the world on it, but that will never make it 0846. If it is 0846 then he needs to actively seek out and engage the necessary people to help him prove it. He should not be so passive as Ferrari will never go to him. If he really believes his chassis is what he thinks it is he needs to come back down to earth and go to them, if that would be possible. He needs to drastically change his game plan. Obfuscation and misquotation by omission will not prove anything. He needs to throw his 0846 pdf in the bin and start again. If his car is 0846 he has gone about it in entirely the wrong way and has done the car no justice at all.

 

Sorry. 0858 has continous history. Ferrari knows what it is.

They know it was a P4. They know they officially changed it to a 350 Can Am.

It is not a little bit of P4 and a little bit of Can Am.

0858 is a Can Am with a replica P4 body.

Look at it any way you want. Continous history tells the story of what it is.

Ferrari knowing what the continous history of the car and them stating what it is, is what it is 350 Can Am.

May be built from some P4 parts but Ferrari changed what that car was and that's what it is.

 

There is more proof that it is then it is not.

You don't have to prove how it was built or where the frame damage came from.

But then again no one has to believe you that this is not the frame.

Fair enough.

 

You would send an innocent man to the gallows.

 

I would say, with the information provided, the man is innocent till proven guilty.

 

In that case 0003 is innocent of the charge of being 0846.

 

Then explain the crash damage and how it happened to 0003?

Also explain why this crash damage was never revealed until Jim found it for himself?

 

Crash damage? I've seen what looks like a spanner mark on the left side of the chassis. I believe there is a replaced tube on the rear rhs? That doesn't even prove crash or fire damage as it could have been due to corrosion, metal fatigue or any number of reasons. Piper himself could very easily have damaged it and welded it himself to explain the different welds. By the time Jim bought it, it was a 35 years old. Come on now, Vincent. Get real!

 

I'll be the first to laugh at that.

Let me know when you have some sort of real information.

 

Yes, ok. Please let me know when you and Jim do too. There's been none in this 10+ year old thread or the pdf so I won't hold my breath.

 

Vincent you really do more harm than good at times in the defence of 003 actually being 0846.

 

Yes, because he has stated so, and in fact even made an offer on the car which he felt was adequate for a CAN AM.

There you go using the words "should" and "needs" again. He doesn't need to do anything. Precisely one person in this planet needs to be satisfied with the proof that that car is 0846, and that is Jim Glickenhaus.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly but until he has proved it is the original 0846 I would ask him not to insult the intelligence of people and keep that satisfaction to himself.

 

Look at the clutch assembly in the picture in post 8023. Note that the clutch and flywheel is much much smaller than the similar hardware in the endurance car engines. Look at the large bellhousing mount on the engine in that post configured as an F1 engine.

There is no reason for this bell housing to be that large if it was being used with the F1 flywheel and clutch assembly. The only reason for the bell housing to be that large is to accommodate the much larger endurance car flywheel that has the large rubber insert to dampen shaft torsional vibration.

If anything it is clear from that post that this engine was designed from the outset to be used in the endurance cars, and was therefore never designed from the outset to be an F1 only engine. While it can be configured as both, the larger flywheel and bell housing necessary for the endurance car specification drives the design configuration.

While Piper may have fitted it with a short stroke crank at one time, the engine, as sitting in the car and presented now is fully configured to the proper P4 specification.

Quit this nonsense about this not being a P4 engine. As noted earlier it has the correct 3 valve P4 heads, correct fuel injection, and 4 liter crankshaft, and the block was designed specifically to be used in the endurance cars as evidenced by the much larger bell housing that is necessary for their larger flywheel and clutch assembly.

It is most likely a spare block, but since it was obviously designed to be used in the endurance cars, it never was an F1 only block.

When Piper first built and was trying to sell the car he put in parts that he most likely didn't think he would ever need. The P3 transmission, two valve heads, the 3 liter crank and fiberglass body parts were all "disposable" items. Piper had no use for them and was obviously trying to get rid of as many parts bin items as could be packaged into a "P4 replica". At the time he was keeping all of the "good" P4 parts for his own use. None of those parts are in the car now so your claims that this is or ever was an "F1" engine are nonsense.