Clutch Master

I had seen one in person at a parts store and was 80% sure it would fit but never got around ordering it.

 

Are all Mondial master cylinders the same? Mondial 8 to T?

 

It doesn't look the same at all.

The 81 Spyder MC from IAP looks identical, has the identical Bendix no cast into it, but this one too is not a bolt-on. First, the reservoir on the OEM part is not affixed in the same way. I think it's a click fit but I did not try to remove mine for fear of breaking it. The Alfa reservoir is a screw-in, and it's round not square. Now the other issue is the fork and the boot. The fork is not the same length. You can use your old fork. Now the boot. While I did not attempt the IAP version, an Alfa 81 spyder aftermarket unit from another supplier would not go. The boot is fatter and it won't fit thru the hole in your pedal box. I suppose this could be remedied but not straightforward. It's possible the IAP part might fit better. Now in case you are thinking of removing the seals from the Alfa part and using those, I would be very interested to hear what you find. IAP lists a seal kit for the Bendix unit but it's vaporware (it's been out of stock for nearly 2 years). The 81 Spyder aftermarket unit I tried had entirely different internals and thus the seals were not useful. You could perhaps transplant the entire piston assy with the 2 seals, but I didn't try that and I doubt the diameter is the same.

Bottom line: I reused my donut o-ring (this one doesn't seal anything, it's just a guide to align the piston in the bore); and I used a near-enough lipped seal I got from Guido who posts here. I think I may have one of those seals left over from my experience, if you want to give it a try. This worked fine.

Bottom line, unless it's leaking, let sleeping dogs lie (learned that the hard way).

 

Mine is an 82 ...

 

How the master works :
the donut seal is the most important. When pressing your pedal, fluid is blocked in the circuit and the donut seal is pressed against the piston wall. This stays that way until the pedal is complet down and the slave is complet in.
When letting your pedal go, the donut looses contact and the fluid is coming back in the master cilinder trough the inner diameter.
The donut seals I send to Russ have a bigger inner diameter and works better then oem.
The fluid is interchanging faster and the clutch can be pressed faster and let go also...faster shifting the gears.
The seal with lip is only there to keep the fluid inside the master.
For those you wants the donut seal..I do have them available. Please pm me.

Guido

 

How did you guys get the clutch master out? Some posters make it sound so easy. I can't fit both hands to remove the pin that connects the rod to the pedal leveler. Are you removing the pin with only one hand?

Or should I remove the complete brake/clutch box assembly as another fchatter did in another post?

I have the seals from Guido, I just need to take the cylinder out of the car.

 

Sorry Guido, pls don't use me as a reference for your seals. I was unable to use your "donut" seal (inner seal) and you were unable to obtain a dimensionally correct copy. You sent me a donut that was way off in terms of dimensions. You then sent me some lipped seals that do not look at all like the original donut seal. I don't see how a lipped seal can float on the piston as the donut is designed to do. I did use the outer seal you sent me (lipped seal) but it too was not the correct fit ... it's very tight on the piston and also in the bore, and I only used it because I had no other. I think it causes the piston to stick as I had great difficulty bleeding the system. Once the system was bled, the slave spring forces the MC piston back into position so it "works", but for how long remains to be seen. If you want to run a side business selling seals, then you need to get the correct parts.

 

Don't bother to take the master out until you have the right seals, or your car will sit on axle stands for 18 months like mine did.

To get the MC out of the car, you need to use a pair of needle nose pliers in one hand to remove the split pin and then the main pin will come out. You will need to remove the front seat in order to get in there on your back (unless you are a contortionist). Putting the pin back in is even more difficult than getting it out, as the pin is designed to come in from above and there is barely enough clearance to get it in from the top. I made a special "pin holder" out of a piece of wire, that allowed me to put the pin into position from above, then I moved it up just enough to allow me to get the fork into position, then I was able to drop the pin into the hole and put the split pin back. This is just one paragraph but it took me some time and a great deal of swearing to get it done. I would not start this job unless

1. The MC is definitely leaking (mine wasn't, but I figured that I should replace the seals while I was doing the slave anyway)
2. You have the correct seals. I think you can get an outer (lipped) seal from any generice seal supplier as the original seal is not metric. The inner (donut) seal is unobtainable anywhere, not in the USA and not in Europe. I am not 100% sure of its function, it looks like it's just there to guide the piston, it floats back and forth on the piston and there are some small holes in the piston so it may act as some kind of valve.

The MC is common to the Alfa Spyder 81. I got one and tried to fit it. The problem was the rubber boot is 'fatter' than the original and it won't go thru the hole in the aluminum pedal box. It's possible another brand would work. IAP has the original Bendix version, that's probably the best bet. You will need to reuse your fork, and you will have to live with the Alfa round reservoir. I could not figure out how to remove the original Ferrari reservoir from the OEM master cyl. The Alfa version screws into place. The Ferrari version has two tabs to prevent the reservoir from rotating. I was afraid to experiment too much as those tabs look like they could break off easily. I think the Ferrari verson snaps into place, but I am not sure.

 

Thanks for the advice about the seals. My MC is leaking slowly. I am bleeding the system every few months to get the air out. The protective rubber carpet and my shoes are a mess.

What is the Alpha Romeo part number? I see that they look very similar to the Ferrari ones.

My MC has a tube to the brake reservoir. Though I prefer the separate reservoir on the MC itself.


1984 Mondial QV Cab

 

Ok, guys...the donut seal is working fine on my car since 2 months now. As Russ told you already, the seal with lip is also working on his car. Even that it give some problems to bleed the system...it did not on my car.
Just wait and see for how long ?! But for now, its works.
I think the original seals that are in the cars for 30 years and more, have diffirent measurments with age and use. So the correct numbers are not to find. Just experiences are needed.
The master can get out without taking all the rest. Take out the driver seat first (4 nuts)
You have to remove the 2 smaller springs on the clutch and gas pedal. Just remove them on 1 side.
Loosen the nut that goes to the level about 1 cm. Then you can remove the splitpin and puch the pin from the rod just enough that the shaft comes out of the level.
By loosen the 2 nuts on the master side (1 with a cilinder key from 12 mm under side and the other with a normal 12 mm key) the master comes out.

Let me know if you need more info;;
Guido

 

"My MC has a tube to the brake reservoir. Though I prefer the separate reservoir on the MC itself."

It seems the MC on the 84 model is different than the 82. My references are for the 81/82 model. The Alfa Spyder 81 available from IAP has the same Bendix no cast into the cylinder as the Mondial, so I assume the internals are the same. Unfortunately, IAP has not been able to come up with a seal kit despite having this kit listed in their catalog for 2 years. If and when they get it, this may be the answer.

 

For what it's worth, the '83 QV has a tube running from the reservoir to the clutch slave.

I think the casting number on the part may be just that, a casting number. The part would then be bored and possibly sleeved to accommodate different piston diameters as required, so I wouldn't put too much faith in that number alone.

From the Mondial 8/QV workshop manual: master bore diameter = 11/16" dia (17.46mm), total stroke = 30mm

I suspect the cylinder bore allows greater travel, but 30mm is the expected range of travel when everything is adjusted correctly and the correct dia. slave cylinder is used.

 

Correction :By loosen the 2 nuts on the master side (1 with a cilinder key from 12 mm under side and the other with a normal 12 mm key) the master comes out.
This must be 13 mm each...
Guido

 

Reviving an old thread. Did anybody tried this Alfa Romeo clutch master?

Alfa Romeo and Fiat Clutch Master and Slave Cylinders

 

Reviving an old thread. Guido's seals DO work!

Guido,

The clutch master cylinder I got form AW New Jersey was very hard to press and did not disengage quickly. Not sure why.

I installed the seals you sent me in my original 30 year old clutch master as an experiment. The bore inside is still rusted and pitted, so the leak is still there. But the new seals work wonders. I can tell that the clutch disengages quicker and presses softer now.



Kudos to Guido for finding the seals!!

I just ordered the Alfa Romeo Centric Clutch Master Cylinder 136.02102, as posted in another thread. I already installed the Alfa Metelli as the slave, so I'll try all Alfa Romeo hydraulics to see if the clutch is softer. It will be larger bore sizes on both ends. Will they even out as compared to the Ferrari smaller bore on both ends? I'll find out.

Side note: The first time I replaced the master, it took me 3 years to gain courage, about 1 week to replace and bleed it. Last night I replaced the master cylinder, bleed the system and was out test driving in about 2 hrs.

Hopefully I can graduate from the Hydraulics Club and not deal with brake fluid puddles any more!!!


Richard

 

Guido travels quite a bit. I got my seals from him while he was in Argentina.

The Ferrari clutch performs great now with Guido's seals and the Mitelli slave. The issue is the pitted master body cylinder/bore, it still leaks. My shoes are again with brake fluid stains and the plastic carpet cover is a puddle of brake fluid.

Next experiment will be taking the piston with Guido's seals out of the pitted Ferrari body and put it in the AW master body.

 

Hi Bill,

I did get you mail, but my returns always come back as faillure...something is wrong with your emailaddress.

I do have the seals with me for the moment...I´m still in Brasil until 15/05. Next Ill be back in Belgium and I think its safer to send them from there.

Let me know by PM.

Guido

 

Do not, repeat do not even THINK about alpha hydraulics. I did both front and back and really really regret it. THEY DO WORK. And the clutch is lighter. Both failed within days. Not only that, but I suspect a parasitic harmonic at 7,000 rpm resulted in both the slave failure and chatter sympathetic resonance failure of the clutch disk itself.

I can not see any other explanation why both the alpha slave AND the clutch plate failed at exactly the same time on a hot day at high rpm. The Alpha parts might be ok for boulevard cruising. But they are designed for a clutch of much less resistance and much less rpm.

 

Too late. I followed your original thread and ordered the Centric part number you listed. It arrived today. $49. I am following your tips on drilling the threads, bleeding and installing.

If it doesn't work, I'll put back on the new Ferrari master. I'm experimenting on how to get the clutch softer. The Ferrari hydraulics are too hard.