328 concours questions

I have read recent posts regarding concours preparation and the advice has been very helpful.

I have a 1987 GTS and am considering taking it to the FCA meet in June. I have never had the car judged and wanted advice regarding how some specific issues may be viewed in judging the car.

- the car has a period Alpine stereo, along with speakers in the door kick panels with speaker grills. How many points would typically be deducted for this. I realize the speakers should be behind the carpeted kick panels with no visible speaker grills. Also, it would have come from the factory with no stereo, just the speakers on the upper dash.

- Do I need to remove the FCA decal from the rear window?

- I have the original, old style, wheel center caps. One has a 3/8" crack in it, which is not very noticeable but is there. Should I replace it?

- the pouch for the auxiliary flashlight has come apart at the seam. I cannot find a replacement.

- the tires are new Pirelli P7's. Proper size. Reading the judging rules I assume these will be fine?

- again, after reading the rules, I assume that issues such as micro swirls in the paint and small blemishes to the leather are considered original patina, but would they keep you from getting platinum if there were other cars with better paint, etc?

I realize these questions will seem naive to those with concours experience, so I apologize for that. This will be my first concours and I do not really know what to expect, and want to be as well-prepared as possible.


Thanks in advance for your advice.

 

Also a concours-newb here:

I can understand losing points for non-OEM components such as an aftermarket muffler, but what about consumables or items which wear out due to age? For instance, would you really get dinged (major or minor) for using SRI hoses versus the silly cloth-braided ones - especially for fuel/fuel vapor hoses?

 

I am a Senior Judge, so is the other half and it is very possible one of us will be your judge so:

Any tires of the correct size are OK. No wide whites though. They just have to be a correct replacement for the original.

Broken, cracked, faded wheel caps will be noticed and deducted for. So will non standard valve stem caps. Use plain black rubber only.
Only factory floor mats.
SRI coolant hoses are fine. The orange fuel hoses under the car will not be seen. If someone can see the orange filler hose or any orange vapor hoses make a case for it being needed to survive modern government rat piss gas and you can probably get away with it. This is exactly the reason I tried to get Dave to make them black. Personally I think the orange looks terrible and it does detract in places where it can be seen.
The pouch may cost you half a point but many judges may lump that in with another minor issue and make it half for both.

The radio is a big judgment call. The head unit is fine as long as it is a neat clean installation. You might get hit for the door speakers, it depends how it looks. If it is really nice and sort of unobtrusive, maybe 1/2 point. If it isn't I don't know how it could cost you over 1 point unless a mess was made of the job. The rest of the install, wiring etc has to be very neat, clean job. The stereo will be obvious, bring it up and ask straight out what they think.

Presentation is important. The car needs to look like it is cared for. If the paint is a little iffy I would have a detailer run a polisher over it. Perfection is not needed but we want cars that look like people care for them and are being kept mostly original.

There is no limit on the number of platinums in any class so if there are 5 other really good cars that shouldn't prevent you from getting one.

 

Thanks very much for the advice!

 

Re-glue your pouch seam with a quality clear glue, No one will notice.

 

Great info - couple questions if I may...I have a 78 GTS, but I think all of this is common with the 328 if I am not mistaken.

On the valve stems - isn't the current, correct part an all metal valve? I actually have rubber on mine because I didn't have the OE Ferrari valves at the time.

Do you think most judges know the difference between the older pale yellow caps and the newer darker yellow caps? I run the original pale yellow, but they are well polished...still 2-3 shades off the newest caps from Ferrari.

Thanks!

 

Some general thoughts on showing at concours... first, the main issue is cleanliness... inside, outside, under the car, wheelwells, suspension, engine bay, glass, rubber, interior, you name it. If it can be seen with any device at all- mirror, flashlight whatever- it should be very, very clean. No oil, extra wax, paint overspray, nothing. But, at least you don't have to contend with wire wheels!

Next on the list is originality, in the case of certain items like tires, batteries, etc. original specification is OK, as the previous respondent- a senior judge, no less- mentioned. Personally I wouldn't worry about the radio; if it looks good and works, fine. If the speaker grills stand out overmuch you might consider painting them to match the carpet they were originally hidden by. Tan, red, black, whatever; any good hardware store ought to have some rattle can paint to match fairly well. Regarding painting, prepare the surface well, no scratches or dents, and paint evenly with several very light coats. The grilles ought to be painted while flat; support them on a can or bottle. Light coats on vertical surfaces, to avoid drips. Mounting screws included, if there are any; make some cuts in cardboard and stick the screws in the cuts for painting.

Then comes condition. Be sure everything works. All the controls, windows, lights, horn, whatever. Making something clean won't fix something broken or damaged. If something is, it ought to be repaired or replaced, as best as you can. This is a good idea whether you show the car or not; if enough small detail items go unrectified for enough time at some point getting around to doing them all properly will seem overwhelming. People often sell cars - even ones they like- for this very reason.

As regards paint, a good detailer has techniques and tricks that few of us do that aren't into car detailing; this includes removing swirl marks. Also, on the 328 make sure the tan cloth-covered trim pieces around the rear window are clean...and good luck. Cleaning very textured cloth isn't easy; leave it to experts. (as an aside, I replaced the cloth on these cloth-covered trim items on my own 328 with black vinyl, to match the dash, which isn't leather either, though most everything else is. Not original but much, much better looking, and easier to clean, of course. IMO).

Slightly discolored or even damaged/worn leather can also be dealt with, usually. Some lexol, or even a redye job can help out a lot, much less expensive than new leather upholstery. A good detailer can work wonders! However, stained or worn carpet is a different issue... new carpeting will cost somewhere between $2000~$3000. World will sell a kit in Wilton wool for around $1000 or so; the pieces are finished and cut to original factory patterns.

To what extent do you want to go to show your car for some sort of prize? Is pleasing a judge more important than pleasing yourself? IMO, having a beautiful car such as a 328 in excellent condition is worth far more than whatever prize you might collect.

My advice, do the best you can- without going overboard- and enjoy the day! Anyway, you'll get tips for "the next time" after you give it a whirl!

Last bit of advice: Never look back; something might be gaining on you!

Cheers, and good luck-

Rich Saylor

 

All of the 308 series cars came with all metal stems. You should be marked down for rubber. The valve stem caps went from metal to rubber at some point in the first half of the 80's. There is no absolute date at which they changed and I have seen 84 BBi's with metal and earlier cars with rubber. Anywhere prior to 85 and later than 81 or so should be able to use either.

I think most of the IAC/PFA judges who have as a specialty the 80's & newer cars will know the difference in the wheel center caps. The new caps are the current replacement from Ferrari but the early caps can still be bought. In most cases it won't matter but my personal position is if there is a borderline issue the guy with the old style caps will win out. When it comes to things like special awards like a Preservation Award where the judges sit in a meeting and argue who deserves what small things like that can matter. When it comes to special awards you don't want to fit in, you want to wow the judges.

 

Thanks man! Appreciate it!!

 

I guess EFI isn't allowed?


When all else fails read the damn manual. - wife

 

If you do decide to enter Dave, it would be great to follow your progress/preparation on here.

Best of luck.

 

After reading these great comments, I have thought of a couple other areas of potential concern which I will list below.

- there is a lead for the battery tender which sticks out from the battery well and extends through the spare tire. It can be pushed behind the tire to not be visible but it is there. Also, does the spare tire get removed when being judged?

- 3-4 small nicks on the leather covering the emergency brake lever, as well as the seat adjuster covering. Looks like the seatbelt, or an object stored in that area may have put a few small cuts in the leather.

- squeal from alternator or belt upon cold startup. Nothing the dealer advises addressing, and does not happen upon warm startup.

- clear film over the front foglights ( the thought of $2000 foglight replacements scares me greatly )

( Brian, Thanks again for your advice. If I get the car to the FCA meet, you and/or your wife will know exactly what to check! )

And again thanks to all for your input.

Hopefully this is the end of my list. Funny how the little details can add up...
Most of the above are issues I can address prior to the concours, if necessary.

 

Thanks Brian for the information. I'm not so worried about the non-cloth braided hoses now. I do hope things like hose clamps don't come up, as Dave's coolant hose kit came with a bunch of new clamps which aren't like the original.

Are there any documents you can share which outline how points are allocated, how the judging process works, or anything like that? I'm seriously considering having my car judged this year.

 

IAC/PFA Concours Judging Guidelines | Cavallino - The Journal of Ferrari History

This does not address all your questions but it is a start.

 

Put the battery tender wire where it cannot be seen. No reason to remove the spare. There were a couple of people at one point doing that but I believe it has stopped.

If the leather damage is seen it may be a minor issue.

Your dealer is 100% wrong about the belt noise. Get it fixed before you get stranded. A squealing belt is never OK or normal.

Film on paint or lights is OK as long as it was well done.

 

If there are some minor defects in leather, water-based dye can fill them in, used carefully. Of course to do this the dye needs to match the leather. Various companies sell leather dye, including World Upholstery in Santa Paula, CA. Rattle-can dye is easier to use (if you can get the matching color) but doesn't really fill in, in my experience. It's best to have whatever you're spraying horizontal, to avoid drips & runs. Several thin coats are better than heavy coats, and dry faster. Some companies can match colors, given a sample to use. Also, some shoe repair shops can also mix dyes to match. Might give them a call if any are in your area & want to try it out. I use lacquer thinner to clean the leather prior to re-dyeing. Professionals have other tricks up their sleeves, but would need to have the parts in hand, of course. If all else fails rattle-can black dye- not water based- (available from World) can hide a multitude of sins, and can often require only 1 coat.

Hope this helps!

Rich

 

Yep, that's a nice start. Thanks.

 

Do it, Jeff! Keep the string of platinums won by your car going. When I showed the car in Hartford back in 2010, the only deductions were for the pedals and the Tubi.

 

I've taken care of the Tubi (boy do I love the stock muffler), and I also have the pedal covers and original shift gate to put back in place (easy). Other than that, everything shows well and -- more importantly -- works. However, there's 15,000 miles of extra wear on the paint despite the clear-bra I put on the whole front and below the belt-line. There's also the matter of the front brake rotors which I changed out for non-OEM. The originals were too thin to re-surface, and I just couldn't bring myself to use the stock rotors when a superior set were available for less price (GiroDisc). Not that you can actually tell when the wheel is in place...

Being a newb, I just don't know how picky the judges are with respect to little items like clamps, paint chips, etc... If each clamp = 1 point, then SRI coolant hose kit is going to do me in. A clamp is a clamp to me as long as it is high quality and generally looks right/similar to the original...

Guess just do my best, have fun, and learn from the attempt.

 

Started today with getting the car ready, I replaced the cracked wheel cap - the old one came out easily after inserting a screw in it; the new one took forever to push in, and I cracked a new one trying to knock it in. There must be some trick to doing this I don't know about.

I have posted a couple of photos of the issues is noted above

Speaker in door panel.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Leather nicks
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

More leather nicks
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

A $60.00 mistake (note the crack)
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Well, I will now have to miss the FCA meet due to some work related issues. I still hope to get my car judged some day, and more importantly get to one of these events to meet people and see great cars. Thanks again to all for the advice. I will work on the issues that were addressed. Hope all of you that are headed to the meet have a great time!

 

A little crack here, a little ding there isn't the end of the world but those things can add up.

I'm not sure if 1/2 point deductions are the official way to tally results, but even with half point deductions, once the whole car is judged, they can add up to several whole points and you end up with a 95-97 point car which is not bad but not a winner at a big event with several cars judged.

-F