The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I didn't say the block was "totally different" to a P4. I said it was 312 F1. The specification of this block may be different in height and in the liners. The N1 and N3 stampings refer to the engine number. The 0003 number may well refer to the chassis number. The Tipo 242 F1 3 valve head unit is from about the same time or slightly older than the 237. It was introduced at the Italian GP at Monza in September 1966 where it achieved a 1 2 victory by Scarfiotti and Parkes.

 

There is no height of the block differences or liners, it's just a crank and conrod change. This again demonstrates how unnecessarily heavy these engines were for F1 duty ... a low point of Ferrari F1 history.

Btw: I now think all of these blocks have the curved strengthening rib on one side and the straight rib on the other side.

Therefore while this block was designated to be used for F1 duties it is exactly the same as a P4 block so a damn good place to build a P4 engine from 50 years after these cars were retired from active duty.

IMO We have now learnt that Jim maybe wrong about the curved rib implying it is indeed a P4 block but it still is the right type of block and as usual with Jim he has NOT machined off the F1 stampings so no confusion or blurring of history has taken place.
Pete

 

He did and Piper has said that his chassis was made from P4 drawings along with all his frames.
Pete

 

Yes.

But in the absence of a predetermined fact or statement that Miura will believe, logic is the only tool you have to determine what is likely versus unlikely when searching through the skip.

There is a possibility that Napolis eyed that P car back in Pipers garage and hatched a nefarious plan to fool the world. Two years passed and when the car was finally counter-fitted he sent it to John Hajduk to hatch its discovery.

But I feel that is extremely unlikely. Extremely. I feel the frame most definitely came as it was from Piper.

Then how is it that it came to be as it sits today.

There was a ton of work. Even on the frame. If it is a replica then I'd be glad to have it, cause it is one finely built replica at this point.

But if Piper built this frame and not Ferrari then where is the logic behind how it was done?

There's race results. What was the car registered as? What motor did it run? What are the dates? Has the car ever been photographed with the P3 engine in it? What is the History and the time frame that "0003" ran as a P3? Were there any DNF's and due to what? What is the history of this car as it was owned by Piper? What is a basic timeline of its use as a P3 as well as a P4?

How the frame came to be is the answer to the real question. Only after that is answered, do questions about how original the mirror is have any bearing on if it is X% authentic or original.

It's either a replica frame 0003 built by Piper with mostly spot on original Ferrari parts.

Or it's the surviving remains of 0846 with mostly spot on original Ferrari parts.

How the frame came to have these distinguishing characteristics matters, mostly if you don't believe the guy giving you the answers, that has access to the information.

 

Notice how Jim in his 0846 pdf compares the gearbox that was in 0003, that he claims is tipo 593 P3 when he acquired it from David Piper, to the 1967 F1 tipo 606 gearbox in the top picture where you can see that it is different to the one in 0003 which looks like the original tipo 593 gearbox in 1966 P3 0846. What he should be doing is displaying how very similar the gearbox is in 0003 to the 1966 F1 gearbox which is a tipo 589 F1 unit in the bottom two pictures of which there isn't an example in his pdf. Is this to make us think that his engine and gearbox are Ferrari Prototype rather than Ferrari F1 as in the auction description?
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Nothing like that gearbox Steve, nothing ... but exactly the same as #0846's press photo. Jim's right.

Sorry, keep trying.
Pete

 

Yes, Steve, lots of pictures but they prove the opposite of what you're saying. We went through all this ten years ago - have a look at this photo from the Ferrari garage at the 1966 Le Mans 24 Hours, which clearly shows what gearbox the P3 was using, and how it's different from the F1 version:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thehenryford/7466342614/in/set-72157630340821488

Piper (and Nye if he wrote the auction catalogue description) were wrong if they thought that gearbox in the auction car was F1 - things have been and are still being found that make old paperwork obsolete. Most books and magazine articles say Ferrari used ZF gearboxes in the works P3's all through 1966, when that photo link clearly shows differently.

Paul M

 

Quit shooting yourself in the foot out of spite with things of which you do not know.

This is 0846 at Daytona in 1967
followed by a 1967 312F1 from the 67 USGP

Hopefully these are of some use to someone with regards to this thread.

Copyright JAG
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None of this in any way helps to determine if the car is the actual 0846. Nothing but distractions.

It is clearly just an attempt to dis-credit JG.

I realize Miura is trying to show his king of the jungle automotive dominance over JG with his knowledge, but....

(JJ, I'd have to think that somewhere in one of your great photos there could be some sort of detail found linking Jim's frame to the past if it is indeed 0846)

 

I was wrong about the gearbox and I'm happy to admit it. My apologies to all.

 

There ya go, I fixed it for you.

Just a joke. Not Miura's real words.

Cheers.

 

+1967!!!!!
Pete

 

Museo Biscaretti di Ruffia, Torino 1967.
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Great photos.

 

Worn race cars. Nice.

 

Hi thanks to all for those Ferrari things!
Anyone has in his archive a P3 engine-gearbox like those used at Spa or Monza 1966?
Thanks!
Alessandro

 

I went away from this thread a while, and just came back. Looks like miurasv is crapping all over the house (again). I put him on ignore when this happened on another thread, and would suggest you all consider the same thing. It makes it much easier to read F-Chat that way.

 

I didn't look at the timeline. I saw another thread (Jim leaving) which referred to this one and I followed the thread.

Sorry, not trying to inflame others. Just wanted to let others know that I have found the "ignore" function to be useful.

 

In my judgement, miurasv has not been a participant on FerrariChat acting in good faith. There is a history of spamming the site with inventories of dealers, his profile is still of a commercial nature, and he persists in trolling another member's vehicle with inane technical discussion in an attempt to discredit that member. This last activity is the most damning, has seen him added to the ignore lists of many members, constitutes long-term harassment, and I believe has significantly detracted from the positive site experience of FerrariChat.

Therefore, I have applied a permanent exclusion from the forum.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Not the right decision in my opinion, but hey, you're the moderator and you know best...

Paul

 

Well done! About time in my opinion.

Good decision.

 

Steve asked questions, many of which had not been asked before, he conducted lots of first hand research (unlike the members of the Glickenhaus fan club here, who just accepted what he said as fact).
Steve produced many technical debates which were way over my head but because it did not tie in with the version according to Glickenhaus he was deemed to be a troll.
Is this not a forum for debate and discussion about Ferrari motorcars?

Paul

 

I don't feel it was the questions that were offensive, but what he was trying to pursue. That tainted every attempt he made at a valid question.

It was obviously a quest to discredit rather then discover.

If he was so concerned with knowing the real story of the car, he would have spent less time trying to knock down Jim's research and would have looked to find real facts of how the car came to be.

My opinion is Napolis did all the research he felt necessary. For me it was more then enough due to I just have to look at the logic of how the frame came to be and it makes sense that the best story, IMO, is that Ferrari built it this way.

Was all the research spot on correct? Probably not, but I feel that there was a lot of valuable information there that could be questioned in a more positive way then he did. Some of it may have fallen apart, but in its basis, I believe Napolis put together many good points to research further and strengthen or dismiss as facts. Miura did everything he could to slander valuable information that the common man can't easily get his hands on.

I'm up for decent facts of this is not so, but there was no research to find that story. Just more or less attempts to do anything to dis-credit Napolis for personal reasons.

But if he really wanted to get to the truth, he wouldn't have spent his time in a flame war trying to conceal that he was calling Napolis a liar.

He would have searched for the only thing that matters. How the frame came to be if it wasn't built by Ferrari.

Personally I am glad the thread has died. Nothing worthwhile has been discussed in it for quite some time.

 

+1