The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

In Jims opinion that is (which he is fully entitled to have) but no basis in proven fact other than some un named welders belief? 2 plus 2 and all that.....does not always equal 4. Are there any photos of this extensive fire damage and repair in the pdf? can someone post them up if they know which page they are in.

Pipers P3 then updated to P4 replica was a race car for a long time, these things happen to race cars, why would Piper have to prove anything? he sold it as a replica and stands by that fact to this day.

Again what if we assume Piper rather than having the initial P3 chassis built, bought instead an old discarded P3 chassis why would he later need Kerry Adams to modify it to accept a P4 engine if the mods were already present (which MF lets not forget says were not done the ferrari way) and as soon as he realised the mods were already present clearly a man such as Piper with detailed knowledge of these cars would instantly know the only P3 converted to accept a P4 engine was 0846

Would he just shrug his shoulders and dismiss the notion, a shrewd man like him, I doubt it.

 

None of Piper's racing cars had a fire to the level described that this chassis had were was subsequently repaired, let alone to the exact area where the Le Mans fire damage was. That and the very specific targa florio repair pointed out clearly by the man himself who performed the repair is quite strong. There's other evidence out there from other people, but this is in essence the primary evidence of substance IMO although others may disagree that testimony from other notable figures is stronger.

Of course Piper is going to state it's a replica, why would anyone publicly admit they practically threw away a priceless chassis. Piper probably mixed it up with others he had, after many years that's a very believable scenario.

 

The spanner mark comment was made by Miura to explain the damage. Not by Kerry Adams.

 

The auction description, in absolutely no way, describes the construction of a P3 chassis. That is an utter and complete fallacy.

It only states that Kerry Adam's assembled the components. "British specialist Kerry Adams has completed assembly of this particular car"

It in no way whatsoever states that Adams converted the chassis to accept a P4 engine.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143164044-post8334.html

He is not an Un-named welder. He is in fact a well known authority and repairer of Vintage Ferrari race cars. I believe the man Ferraripilot is referencing is John Hadjuk. I would figure you would know that by now as he is the man whose observation got this whole ball rolling in the first place.

If you haven't even taken the time to search out and analyze the crash damage photo's I have no idea why you are in this conversation. As it is the main reason this car is believed to be 0846. Look into the Targa Florio crash damage as well as the LeMans Crash damage.

Again. You are back to it must have been a discarded Ferrari P3 chassis? Well if that discarded P3 chassis is not 0846 then please do us the pleasure of telling us which one it is? I would like to know which Ferrari chassis I am looking at if it is not 0846.

Piper does not have to explain the crash damage. This is proven as he has yet to do as such. But for anyone to believe that this chassis is not 0846 that needs to be explained with proof. No one has to. But no one is gonna believe the tale of 0003 without it.

It is not simply "just a spanner mark."

 

Right, it was John Hajduk. Hardly a nobody.

 

He's a nobody if you don't know who he is.

 

How do you know that Piper didn't in fact do this, when selling the car to Jim?

As has been discussed, Piper knew that publicly claiming the car was 0846 would have caused him issues with Ferrari. That's not to say that he couldn't have hinted at it to Jim, and at the same time priced it higher than might have ordinarily been the case for a completely non-original Ferrari.

What's the old car salesman line? "You know, some people say that this car might be... Of course, I really don't know for sure..."

 

And if he would have capitalized on this chance, why would he have not capitialized on it if it was built from the remains of another existing Ferrari built P3 chassis??????

 

This is THE ongoing issue throughout this thread. So Why don't you ask Piper about it? Get on an airplane and fly across the pond and ask him.If you show a genuine interest in David Piper and would value his knowledge and opinions on the subject go and seek him out. If you show a genuine interest in learning from the one who really knows more about these cars and has had over 40 years of experience with them what are you waiting for. You might get some answers and what an achievement it would be. tongascrew

 

“The pictures, sent to me, show some solutions to accept the 330 P4 engine. Never the factory could accept the showed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine.” This statement is clear and leaves no questions open. Mauro Forghieri built the P-cars, was the “factory” in period and no one has such a knowledge of the overall context. It would be slightly ridiculous to challenge this and all that has nothing to do with “politics”. #0846 was “discarded” and the “chassis destroyed”. This car had stopped to exist and IAC/FCA judging standards are simply not applicable

 

David is not going to admit to having a damaged chassis he got from Meade repaired vs having a new chassis fully fabricated. Hajduk has already stated the chassis is a fire damaged chassis that was repaired. The evidence is self explanatory.

 

What of the other factory mechanic at Monterey pointing out the targa florio damage repair he performed then. There appears to be an internal battle with these old mechanics over this ?

 

Tonga. I would like to. Mainly I will not make this journey cause I need to spend that time with my baby girl.

I believe that your concern that history will be lost is the truth. We have a limited amount of time to know what happened with all aspects of various old cars. And when that is gone, it is gone.

Although my opinions are strict, that in no way should be confused with a lack of respect and admiration for Mr. Piper. I'm sure we can both agree that he has lived a life that we both would loved to have lived.

But that doesn't keep me from looking at the physical facts and feeling that the history should be truthful.

I also believe that there are many things at play where the truth is hard to come by. Ego's, politics, jealousy etc.

At the end of the day testimony is testimony and not always correct. The real facts lie in the chassis that sits in front of us. And the facts from the past that connect it.

I know we have different perspectives on 0858. I understand the side of the argument that it was a P4 and therefore it carries that DNA. I do love the Can Am's but given the choice I would have a P4. For me that argument came down to it was the lone survivor and 100% original and I felt that it should be preserved as such. But that is just this man's opinion.

But that was about the car. Not about Piper.

I for one think it would be very interesting to uncover more of his legend and know about the passion that went into his involvement to take on the task of building the 0900 cars.

Although not Original cars per se, they were built close to the real deal. I find it very interesting that he had this passion to do as such after the fact when they were no longer current.

Given the chance, I would love to have a Whisky with Mr. Piper. It would be an honor.

 

What about the physical evidence of the LeMans crash?

My guess is the replacement tubing is of the exact size and construction that is present in the Piper P4 0900 chassis.

My other guess is that the rest of the tubing is that of the other original chassis built in period.

 

"self explanatory"...lol whishful thinking. Piper had raced this car for 2 decades prior to the sale. It would be very surprising if there was no accident or fire damage on this chassis....these P cars caught fire back then at about every other race.

 

Usually when things are burning... People take pictures.

Or at least there is record of a DNF due to fire or accident.

 

I don't appreciate the reference to a banned user.

As for your other point, he might have-- but those sort of sales techniques tend to work better when there is a kernel of truth.

 

It's just a matter of explaining that the fire damage was in the exact area where the Le Mans fire was and '0003' had an identical repair as the one from the Targa Florio damage, then tell the man who actually repaired the targo florio damage and saw the car and pointed out his repair that he is greatly mistaken as are the numerous other notable figures. Then review all records of every 'P' racing car and engine Piper ever raced to check for any fires. If any of his cars had fire damage to this extent, someone somewhere would know. Sounds simple.

 

Point taken. I will delete it.

I am not the one who said he used another P3 chassis. Others have. Such as the banned user and PAUL500.

Which basically is the whole point I've been attempting to make. Without a kernel of truth showing why 0003 has the physical evidence of these irregularities in the metal there are a number of us that are not sold on it being 0003. No one has to prove it. But no one has to believe it either.

 

I doubt anyone outside the Piper circle kept track of every race or appearance of Piper's P cars. They are after all replicas, why would Ferrari historians keep track of those things?!

 

A fire of that level would come to surface, not to mention an identical targa floria repair. Tough pill to swallow that both 0003 and 0846 had exact damage and exact repairs to the point that the man who repaired 0846 thought 0003 was 0846, I cannot see that happening, not at all. It's like when I rebuild an engine, I know my work and know it very well to the point that I have no doubt I will recognize it immediately.

 

They do keep results at races. Even back in those days....

 

Who said he was a nobody? I said un named, you have just named him, can you also point me to the place where John Hajduk has directly made the comments in relation to the repairs please, and at the same time point me to where the photos are showing this extensive repaired damage

 

Jim has stated he spotted the mods to accept the P4 engine, and the fact the P3 mounts were still in place when he viewed the car when Piper had it for sale and at that time Jim thought he had spotted a potential bargain that David Piper did not realise he had. Never any mention of Piper raising that point and I hardly think at the time Jim was going to ask Piper about it and potentially let the cat out of the bag, would you? I know I would not

 

I don't plan trawling back through this thread, but I distinctly remember reading where it was stated about the car prior to Jims ownership that Piper had modelled the car on a previous P3 he had owned, that was then subsequently owned by a Scottish Lord? and at a later point in time kerry Adam then converted Pipers car to the p4 spec it was sold to Jim as.

Then again maybe I was dreaming it, I know some of the contents of this thread sends me to sleep at times.