The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I agree. Now that you have your answer, as a car enthusiast, don't you think it would be interesting to figure out more of the history of 0003?

Or do you not want to know more about the cars you are interested in?

 

Sure do I and I think it was essential for JGs case/theory to acquire accurate as possible history of 003 from day 1 in DPs ownership. I dont think this ship has sailed yet.

Without it the "100 pages" are close to worthless because there may be very simple and innocent explanations for the various deviations of this chassis from P3 & P4 factory spec.

The whole Targa Florio & Le Mans accident repair theory is a red herring for the time being IMO as you cannot really prove anything either way without clear photos of a stripped 0846 post Le Mans....

 

Personally I'm just interested in learning more. In the end that's why I showed up.

I think it's a shame if history passes and stories aren't unraveled.

No one really knows all that much about David Piper and his 0900 Legacy. That is one thing that is clear to me. No one really knows all that much on Davids continuation of building these P cars from where the factory left off or all that much about how he used them.

To me, at least, David Piper and his involvement with Ferrari is a great story that should be better known then it currently is.

I'm sure there will always be a grey area to the 000346 story.

But for me, all along, the history of David Piper has been in the black.

I think a man who had this kind of past with Ferrari... well, as much of his history that can be figured while we can, I feel it is important for his legacy.

And I feel the cars he built are a huge part of that legacy.

If no one digs deep into it, history will soon be just that.

That's all I've been saying, since I started saying anything.

I just feel that people would want to know the legend of their legend.

 

It would be an honor" OK V.V., hear is the deal,I will agree to pick up the bar tab for David Piper for as many drinks that you and David have together at just about any number of sessions. These sessions must be recorded by a third party and may be attended by several other interested parties.I might well attend myself. I would recommend that Jim Glickenhaus be invited as along as he agrees to be respectful with the man who was his mentor.Other invites might go to yourself, Forghieri, Piero Ferrari,and any P 2/3/4 series car owners who might like to attend.I would also suggest this be held in Maranello as part of a Ferrari Anniversary event. Finally David Piper would be given final approval and editorial rights to any recorded or written records of the discussions. Costs of holding these sessions would be born by those attending with the exception of David Piper who attendance would be at no cost to him.So how about this? tongascrew

 

Actually, if you read Jim's document closely, you will see that when he told Piper about what he had found pointing to the car being 0846, Piper did not deny it. He merely said that 0846 was the number used by Pininfarina for P5 and then was silent.

 

I think there are better people to have in that room then me, but it's a good idea if it could actually get organized.

Someday if I bump into you I'll pay for the bar tab for as many drinks as we can handle though. But I get to drive us home in your Cal spyder.

 

Actually it's not. It is the repair damage that is the basis of the belief that #0003 could be #0846. That is when the restorer rang Jim and suggested the possibility ... the engine mounts are supporting info.

Also somewhere Piper said it was built to the P4 plans that he has, like this other replicas, but it obviously isn't.
Pete

 

Exacto

 

Then of course it was ruled later that it would not be physically possible for 0846 to be P5. Why Piper hasn't come out and squashed this entire international discussion himself so ferrari themselves don't have to debate it any longer is beyond me, as all it would take is a little work on his part to explain the incredibly striking coincidences. The fact that he's said nothing (among other things) is what leads me to believe there is a lot of truth to this being mostly 0846.

 

Sorry but a little bit of possible damage to an old race car that was campaigned hard for 2 decades in replica form in no way links 003 to 0846.

The unique feature of 0846 was the fact it was the only Ferrari originally devised to run a P3 engine that was then converted to run a p4 engine by the factory.

003 has that exact same feature. No other car on the planet also had that feature that anyone has named, and the original 0846 no longer exists, was scrapped? two plus two.....

The problem is the man from Ferrari who engineered these cars at the time categorically states that the conversion shown on Jims car was not done the Ferrari way, hence it was carried out by a third party, hence its not 0846.

Exactly how the gestation of the Piper replica is described in the auction before Jim owned it.

Its completely understandable that at the time, piece by piece, starting from the point when the alternative engine mount configuration was found that the belief became that 003 could once have been part of 0846, each little possible clue led to another, but without the alternative engine mounts being in the frame of 003 in no way would any other link to 0846 have been thought.

ie Jim buys 003 as a replica, it runs either a p3 engine as stock with no alternative options, or a p4 engine as stock with no alternative options.

At what point does anyone start thinking that it has any association with 0846 at all? when a welder reads a book about an old race car that had a crash, and it just so happens that at that time he is also working on an old race car that also may have had a crash?

I have to keep re iterating that in no way have I or would I ever be derogatory about the car, or Jims achievements in building a fantastic example of the breed. I, like many many others would have loved to have done the same, and owned such a superb vehicle, and so glad it went to Jim and ended up out there for all to see rather than hidden away in some private collection.

 

It says that: "British specialist Kerry Adams has completed assembly of this particular car, using a five-speed Ferrari Formula 1 transaxle very similar to those used in the early P3 cars with inboard rear disc-brake mountings. Other such mechanical components as the drive shafts, suspension assemblies, steering rack-and-pinion mechanism, instrumentation etc is all original as used by Ferrari in their customer P3/4’s of 1967."

As V.V. stated in his post I would like to know where is the information that Kerry Adams converted this car (or built it) to P3/4 spec....... It wasn't in the vague auction description

 

You have to remember its a brief auction description of the car as it stood at that time in order to sell it, way way before any possible associations were made with 0846, its not meant to be an in depth analysis of exactly how 003 came to be. Its just an overview.

If I were about to buy the car at auction I would have had a conversation with Kerry Adams beforehand to verify exactly what work was done, just like any other potential buyer would do, and also try to have a word with David Piper as well. Due diligence.

Kerry Adams work on the car is just one solution to who the third party was that did the conversion of the frame to accept both types of engines, but remember the key Ferrari man says not our work ,which is the crux of the whole thing, hence not 0846 it would seem at this point in time.

 

The only building of P4 spec in the auction refers to the center section.

Last I checked the engine mounts were in the back. Not in the center.

Also it never uses the term modified. There is absolutely no reference to Kerry modifying the rear chassis to accept a P4 motor. It only mentions him assembling the components. As in putting the car together.

My other belief is that when they are talking about the building of the P4 center section, they are talking about the aluminum panels of the Semi-monocoque as performed by Allegreti, who was a panel beater, not a chassis builder.

"The chassis frame has again been manufactured to original form and all the aluminum work as on the frame’s P4-style semi-monocoque centre-section has been executed by Mario Allegreti, "

***I need to clarify this point below, if anyone can help with information it would be appreciated.

But my belief is that when they converted the P3's to 412P's or to P3/4, thus swapping a P3 style tail to a P4 style tail, this aluminum needs to be re-worked to accept the P4 tail. I believe this is also true when Jim swapped a coupe tail to a spyder or vice versa.

I don't believe you can swap a P3 tail with a P4 tail without some modification.

So if the car were Modeled after 0854 it would originally be built with P4 center aluminum bodywork if modeled after 0854 to have a P3 nose with a P4 tail.

Or if it was built with a P3 tail and then changed to a P4 tail. thus modification would need to take place. Again, this work would be performed by Allegretti.

"Improvements to this car include a P4-style chassis center section."

Again, nothing to do with the engine mounts being modified. As a semi-monocoque chassis consists of the tubing and the aluminum, I believe they are talking about the work of Allegretti skinning the aluminum here.

**** again, please help to clarify the above.

These beliefs are why I have repeatedly stated that this auction description in no way whatsoever clarifies how the chassis was built or how it was modified.

It only states it was built to original form, which could mean to the P4 plans or as a P3 or as a 412P such as 0854.

It is my belief that the P3 and P4 noses are swappable without modification.

If modeled was a strict definition this car would have a P3 motor in it as 0854 does. In the auction description it states that it has the 312 motor in it at the time of the auction and thus what the description should represent.

I believe this cars description of being modeled after 0854 is due to both cars have P3 noses with P4 tails.

As far as Ferrari's viewpoint goes, it is said that Classiche will never accept this car as 0846 >no matter what.<

Sounds political to me.

So I don't see how there would ever come a word from them or the ranks that it was, even if the proof clearly shows that it is. I understand their decision to state how they see the car in their records as they state that they scrapped it. If it was scrapped in reality is what started this whole discussion.

I think for anyone to believe it was scrapped, they would need to believe it was built and modified and damaged by Piper. And the auction description in no way states how this was done. It only states the way 0846 would have been built as a P3 nose with a P4 tail.

*****Please help to clarify if any of my how P3/4-412Ps were built in terms of the center aluminum section and the various tails.

For me, to discount the damage to this chassis ans not being worth investigating is trying to make an argument without making an argument whatsoever.

Funny that it has been stated many times that this is how the car has been built but now it is just a general auction description. I guess it comes down to who wants to add 2+2.

If I look back through this thread, I believe there are many places that you state that this auction description states and proves how the car was built.

Am I wrong?

 

I totally agree with your post............. I don't believe that if anyone wants to be factual they can say that the auction description in anyway actually states that xxx built the chassis. You could make an assumption or hypothesis based upon this but would need some form of statement from the "chassis builder" surely? perhaps a magazine article or quote to the affirmative. That would provide huge weight for the theory that the car does not contain the chassis of #0846.

Further, the MF statement is interesting and perhaps gives a certain basis for the theory that it isn't #0846, as does the highly political statement from the Ferrari Classiche consultant that they would never certify the car as #0846.

But still the pro0846er's are told time and time again that they must prove that the chassis was that of 0846 and by those standards the nay sayers must surely prove it isn't. After all for the most of us we just want to know if this really is the mortal remains of #0846 or just a nicely made David Piper replica and it would be nice to prove it one way or the other with some facts and whatever the outcome it will be fun to try and find out.

 

Up until the point they discovered damage repairs by different welding techniques they like many thought that the engine mount adaption was made to install the F1 engine. It is these repairs that made them go, heck maybe the engine mounts are original.

So sure I'm not saying they didn't look at the engine mounts during disassembly and wonder but until the damage repairs were found they were working on a replica.

BTW I've seen no proof of this car being campaigned hard for 2 decades. If it had we would have discussed this by now, but we never have. I think like a lot of these cars it sat in museums or private collections and occasionally stretched it legs. Remember this "supposed replica" was built many years after their racing days were over ... so the only racing it could do was in limited classic stuff or track days. That is not racing in my books, and it is only a recent thing for historic cars to be raced too hard.
Pete

 

I don't see it that way. I see it the opposite actually.
Why would anyone keep that a secret ? No reason for it at all.

 

Has Piper said anything publicly as I'm really not certain either way as I have not dug that far. I just know he thought 0846 was in fact P5, which it's not. In a perfect world, I would like Piper to explain the replaced chassis tubes and the nature of the targa repair area, and if in fact this was just a repaired chassis from Meade as opposed to a fresh replica chassis? I cannot imagine he wouldn't want to say something one way or the other, but he knows his words are probably worth something on the matter.

 

Intel - see PSk's Blast from the past - Piperisms
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread-353.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Why should DP say anything about this matter unless he is specially asked by a key player?! He doesnt have a dog in this race anymore....why would he want to get involved in this mess voluntarily?

Maybe he is just being a nice person and doesnt want to come out and say...."hey Jim, dont get your hopes too high, I had it built like that and you confused me with that connection to 0846 you made...."

 

If someone bought my car and then claimed later it was some famous racing car chassis because of x, y, and z reasons that escaped me during my 30 year tenure of ownership, I would undoubtedly offer my position, for the sake of Ferrari history and to add substance to a topic which at this point is made up heavily by conjecture and claimed interesting physical evidence on both sides. As Wayne stated earlier, a list of notable's statements (depositions at this point haha) would be helpful, but I would take his first and highest as he's the only one who *might* be able to explain these striking coincidences and specifically discuss origins.

I would be glad to fly out and have a sit down with DP if Jim wanted and DP were agreeable, and have an uninterested third party. This is all stuff I'm sure Jim has already considered anyway, so if he hasn't done it by now then he's probably not interested.

 

DP is in his 80s and probably has no interest like most folk of that age in the internet, its an old car he sold ages ago, why should he care what has happened to it since.

I think he made his feelings on the matter known through the Talacrest vids about 0858 either directly or through John Collins, there can be no doubt they talked all about 003 and Jim during the work he carried out on 0858

 

Great info, thank you. To be a fly on the wall in that conversation!

 

As I said JG needs Piper's stance on the various points of interest in the car's chassis (engine mounts, repairs etc.) if he wants to prove this car is based on the original 0846's remains. This involves a bit more digging work than the simple "I believe this car is actually 0846 - you agree??" - question. Burden of proof is on JG obviously.

You cannot expect that DP will make a statement on his own without being asked to clear this up, because

a) at age 80+ he likely doesnt care and/or has other things on his mind

b) only a complete fool would get himself involved voluntarily in this multi $$$ MM case, in which DP has nothing to be gained at this point

 

I can definitely agree with the above. DP would have to somehow either care or benefit to say something, and if he benefitted then will his word be objective? For me, I'm convinced enough by the evidence but I know that's not enough for quite a few, Which I can respect.