Instructor killed at Summit Point today

Sorry if I was unclear. I meant the incident involving the fatality at which I was present.

In no way do I think Hyperfest is racing.

CW

 

All the way to the console, at point of impact.

Sad.......

 

A small part of Hyperfest is sanctioned NASA roadracing just like any other NASA roadrace.

 

Wow what a shame. That just hits home in a very sobering way. Godspeed Instructor

 

Prayers not only to the family of the BSR instructor, but also to the driver, who will carry this for the rest of his life.

I'm so glad I got out of cars MANY years ago... It's just not worth it.

 

I've never been to summit, but I cannot imagine the possibility of hitting a tree like that on a modern racetrack.

I'm not comfortable in a car with 400 hp at a track without a cage.

 

I didn't see many trees large enough to make that dent, in the videos.

I guess there was one.

 

My vote for worst, most disrespectful, and disgusting fchat post of all time. 'Its good to know the track can bite back'!!?? I hope the small animals you undoubtedly torture can bite you back as well. 'Wasteland of run off'? Why not put landmines there instead? If a driver doesnt respect their limits...? What should be the price they pay, if a fatality is not desirable? Simple loss of limbs maybe? A person died needlessly at your 'home track', sorry if any resulting safety changes displease you. You should be banned here for a long time

Condolences to all involved in this tragedy.

 

Blah, blah, BLAH.

CW

 

Yes, a very small part. So small, from what I can tell, it's really a side show. The main events are the import tuner scene, drifting and bikini girls.

Regardless, the low-down on the NASA license is that it's affordable, which is why lots of drivers get them (as opposed to from other sanctioning bodies).

http://www.imsa.com/sites/default/files/uploads/2014%20Driver%20Annual%20Credential%20Application%20Packet.pdf

Tudor/IMSA annual hard card is $600 alone. Plus $225 for membership. Another $275 for the FIA international license. And, $150 for a competition letter.

NASA is $85 for a seasonal license (license.html - National Auto Sport Association - nasaproracing.com).

CW

 

How old are you? 16?

Kai

 

i see nothing wrong at all with CW's post. Driving on a race track is risky and no one is exempt. Not professionals, not beginners, and not instructors. No one wants any injury or death, but race tracks do bite back and people get hurt and sometimes die. And yes condolences to all families and friends.

On a side note, I've never driven Summit Point but I was once a NASA instructor and rode many times with beginning students.

 

Spoken by a true racer! I fully understand it and take no offense by it. I think the best racers have this attitude. You need to have it otherwise you can't muster the killer instinct needed to take risks and rise to the top. Some are willing to pay the price and some are not. The rest of us are lawyers and doctors or any number of safe endeavors. Unfortunately, the lower down the driver food chain you go those people don't even realize they are taking risks. Not only do they not understand their limitations but also don't fully understand the risks nor do they know how to mitigate them. That is who the waivers are for and the tree removal and the soft walls and any number of ways injury is mitigated. If one goes back and watches the racing documentary the "killer years" even fewer of us racers would be willing to race cars of that era. We have come a long way to making our sport safer. It will never be without risk nor do we want to reduce the thrill to a video game.

 

Comparing a IMSA license cost to a NASA license cost might as well be comparing an FIA F1 license to SCCA autoX license. Amateur racing at affordable pricing has been around forever and without it the cost at the pointy end of racing would be even higher.

Licenses are irrelevant because you need not have any to sign up for this. This happened in a non-racing, non-timed driver training, in a streetcar on a course developed to train LEOs car control/pursuit driving and occasional sanctioned solo races, not a real racetrack.

Everyone complaining about trees and licenses, I'd like to point out that every rally sanctioning body in N America, drivers get their license w/ no driver instruction other than a couple hour safety procedure seminar and then are turned loose to race full speed in the forest amidst trees, cliffs and jumps w/o cornerworker babysitters.

Bikini girls nor drifter sideshows were to blame. No one there was forced to watch either. Not everyone there was a flat-brim backwards hat, pants below their hips wife beater or shirtless douchbag. Yes, offering this driving instruction amidst the tuner crowd attracted to the sideshows is not a great idea. Sorry to say it but ultimately, it was what was permitted inside the car that was the cause.

 

No longer racing, so I hesitate to comment. My progression of understanding was: I drove a street car on track; wanted to be an instructor; became one and was overly proud of it (any one can be an instructor, I later realized); modified my street car for safety and performance; got a race car; then raced; then stopped instructing; then stopped driving street cars on track (especially as street car hp became insane); then stopped even giving people rides; then started being very, very conscious about who was around me when I raced.

I consistently found people completely misunderstood the stakes, the risks, no matter how diligently event organizers tried to portray them. I'd tell my students something like "hey let's have fun but remember today you can destroy your beautiful car, and hurt or kill both of us." Something not to kill but at least try to tame the buzz. Something to get them to snap out of "it." Something like "I've hit walls and been upside down and broken a wrist and in every case, after the adrenaline wore off, it really, really sucked the glamour, the romance, the gladiatorial pretensions, right out of being on track." I loved racing because of the extreme mental challenge, but that's hard to explain to people who think it's all about testicles.

No idea what happened at Summit. But for years I have watched that track's owners build more revenue sources without improving the quality or safety of the main racing circuit in any meaningful way. Yes I remember when the main paddock was unpaved, but so what? Personally, I found the tracks other than the main circuit useless except for the lowest hp cars, or for training purposes. And it seems to me that someone should look into whether SP has perhaps had more than its share of fatalities. T3 is obviously dangerous. How many cars have tracked out wide at 9 and ended up in the woods on the inside of the track before the bridge? Very predictable and obvious to an experienced eye.

I loved "men from the boys" sections of track, they are exhilarating. To pick one: the old dip then downhill at Atlanta. But you really need to understand what you're doing. Right?

I am very, very sorry for all involved.

 

I am old enough to know that spiderman's post is worthy of the carefully crafted response I gave.

CW

 

I've never been on that circuit but always watched them doing their "thing" over there.
I didn't know it was possible to get injured like this there. Given what they originally built that circuit for I have to agree with "why can you even hit a tree there".

I really enjoy the Summit Point Circuit but I've seen cars spin and actually end up hill from the track surface on the inside portion of turns 5-8.

 

Hey cw, how about that the ski trail last christmas that was able to 'bite back' at the former f1 racer who didnt 'respect his limits'? Skiing is not 'basket weaving' either.
Vile

 

Vile? Go put your big girl panties on.

CW

 

A lot of great posts, questions to ponder and things to reflect on in this thread. I was talking with one of my very good friends (been tracking and instructing together for many years) last night about this incident & the picture and we're truly bothered that this happened. For me since I founded and partially ran an HPDE, this is the worst nightmare you never want to see occur- thankfully it never did on my watch. The mentality and levels of intended attack/aggressiveness definitely changes between instructor mode, HPDE participant mode and racer mode. The common denominator is respecting the track, respecting your vehicle's capabilities and maintaining situational awareness. I don't officially race my car, but I partake in HPDE's still- its over 450hp and extensively modified. However besides instructing, I do race a kart and in that thing most everything out there can and will hurt you. I got lucky and 'only' fractured my tailbone last year in a wild off track excursion.

For those of you that have also instructed or still do:

Do you/have you extended your leash on the driver (non-novice group) while doing HPDE's and allow them to run 10/10th's or do you keep them more around 8-9/10th's for that 'cushion'?

How short of a leash do you/have you had on truly novice drivers?

 

cw, from the sophistication of your responses, it all makes sense now.
good bye

 

Not really related to what happened in this Hyperdrive but I don't agree w/ NASA's licensing and HPDE policy. It puts instructors in harms way too long.

I got my time trial license thru EMRA. Did some classroom, was assigned an instructor, got out on track, and alternated classroom and track until instructor signed off you were safe, aware of other traffic, followed procedures,......all in one weekend for most students.

Friend got his EMRA time trial license last year at Summit and has since competed at other tracks w/ EMRA. He knows the deal. Signed up for NASA this past weekend and was forced to do mid-level HPDEs w/ an 'instructor' who was solely teaching him how to go faster. All the additional HPDE instructor seattime increases the risk x 2 (actually more than 2 since you don't have a side of car to sacrifice).

NASA's approach is cheaper entry w/ more cars/traffic. EMRA's approach, pay a little more for space on the track.

 

Extremely short leash. Since this wasn't even a full HPDE (hyperdrives are 20 minute $50 sessions) that are typically only done by those who have never been on the track before I would say keeping them at 6/10ths at most would be appropriate.

From what I hear from those there, he did multiple sessions back to back and IMO that was the main contributing factor. Lets see here: novice driver, high horsepower street car, street tires (from what I hear they were NOT in the best shape, although probably fine for STREET driving or a single DE session)....Having a car that is suitable for one on track glorified parade lap session is much different than doing several back to back. Without much track time it would be easy for a novice on street tires to not realize how much tire degradation they were truly experiencing which is made significantly worse by a high horsepower car.

As far as hyperfest is concerned, you really have two different events going on. The first is the NASA Mid-Atlantic race, they are on the main course for most of the day and as far as amount of track time they are the "main" event. The second is what they promote to bring in tons of spectators which is everything else they have going on.

 

The biggest area of my business right now is video and data equipment sales to pro and volunteer instructors and coaches, precisely so they DON'T have to be in the car...

 

I'll preface this with judging by your username, I am positive you are significantly more experienced than I am.

Although I see your point in having instructors in the car longer makes more instructors at risk, I would argue that having someone have to go through multiple weekends with different instructors before being solo'd is safer long term and produces a better/safer driver base than having the ability to solo after one weekend. I am not sure about you, but the different between my first track weekend and my second one was fairly extreme.

NASA does alternate track sessions and classroom sessions and I feel that the instruction that I received was excellent while working up the NASA "ladder".