375+ # 0384

Interesting second post, thanks!

BTW the first curved windshield was, I believe, on an early 1930's Chrysler.

 

The auction catalogue has arrived.

Lot number 320 can be viewed online

Bonhams : 'The Fearsome Four-Nine' The Ferrari factory team, Mille Miglia, Le Mans and Silverstone May Meeting – Ex-Umberto Maglioli, ex-JoséFroilán González, ex-Jim Kimberly, ex-Troy Ruttman, ex-Howard Hively,1954 Ferrari 4.9-litre 375-Plus Sports-R

 

Dave, It was a long time ago and perhaps you don't remember the details as they were. The XK 120 with the "hand formed alluminum body" was not a 120, but a Jaguar XK 140 DHC, (the only XK on Kleve's property) with metal bodywork, not aluminum. The body was not hand formed either, it was patch panel welded as shown in the photographs I attached. The welding of the car was not an amateur weld job, even the front radiator opening was removed rendering the vehicle useless to drive. The engine was open to the elements for years to allow seizure as it destroyed the internal components. The Cadillac V-16 you mentioned was owned by his mother's, he inherited it as stated in the Wall Street Journal article ( thread # 1103)
Also, Kleve never want to Molsheim, France for the Bugatti family auction, but he rather bought the Harrah's Bugatti "royale" train engine and engine T.46, still packed in a wooden crate.Sincewe are at it, I am not ifwwe can compare "physiisit"Kleve to Michel Dovaz and his "Sleeping Beauties" . Michel saved from the crusher many Bugattis, Ferrari #0148AM and other Cord L.29 and 812, without mentioning Rol's Alfa 6C 2500 # 920002 Competizione, a four time Mille Miglia entry.

I see how you could be under the impression there were 90 cars on the lot and not the 20 as stated in the Western Hills Press article ( Thread # 1107). Anyone could think the same thing since these junks were already parted out and scattered all over the property. You might also remember, the Junks were removed to the old drive-in theater prior to sale.... then scrapped. The township would have loved it if Kleve cleaned up the properties and removed the junks outside Cheviot, Ohio to rot away. Even when the junks were at the drive-in, the city pleaded with designer-engineer Kleve to come get them and haul them off. So, why is it that you did not assist in helping Kleve haul the bulk of his junk to another location? He was a old man at the time and could have used that help.
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I remember the details quite clearly, thank you. You pick curious examples with which to attempt to make your point. The further debate of which, I am unable to see contributing to the advancement of this thread.

Anyone?
Does that include you, Monsieur Faucompre?
As I stated in Post 12 of this thread, "We recovered 90 chassis of various cars" on the 2-acre lot in Green Township where I found the Borranis from 0384 etc.
We recovered 90 chassis.
I'm sorry if a newspaper article you read was inaccurate.

This is your most curious comment of all, Monsieur.
I did.
Karl was old as you say, and he was significantly burdened by mental illness.
Many of us in the local car community rallied around him to try to help him through the situation.
I worked full-time for 6 weeks in these efforts. We filled a warehouse full of Karl's effects and he was given free storage there for quite some time.
I am not clear what your part was in the efforts, at the time in question, but I have detailed mine in this thread.

I'm happy to be a part of this thread to the extent that my part in the story of 0384 can be of benefit.
I also feel bound by my relationship to these events to speak for this "old man" as you say, who can no longer speak for himself- particularly when the whitewashing of a theft becomes the virtuous act of 'saving' a car.
Karl was a complicated man and his custodianship of 0384 was likewise complicated.
I stand with a great, great many who wish he had taken better care of it. That does not change the fact that, were I the buyer in the upcoming auction, the real treasure to me would be what's left of what he had- not what's been recreated in recent history.

Monsieur Faucompre, I have done what I could to answer your claims and to share with you my bias.
I do not know the full extent of your agenda, but I ask that in the future you pursue it without these attempts at impugning my character with statements like, "why is it that you did not assist in helping Kleve"..."He was a old man at the time and could have used that help."

Thank You and a good day to you, Monsieur.

Best Regards,
Dave Powers

 

Good reply Mr. Readplays, it is an inescapable fact that someone stole the car rather than rescued it. No matter the spin that various parties put on it, no-one can deny that Mr. Kleve never passed ownership onto the present vendors and the presentation of history without declaring that it was stolen is simply flawed.........

 

Dear Mr Powers,

I was trying to make the continuation of this thread as so many things have not been correctly reported and I thought it was about time to mention some piece of –unbiased- truth . No doubt you were close to Mr Kleve and probably impressed by its personality - as a younger local person at the time- and that you sincerely wanted to help. I understand I have upset you with harsh words and I apologize for that, you certainly don’t deserve that. And I certainly don’t want to diminish your participation and efforts in the Ferrari (and other) parts’ recovery.
The 4201 Harrison Ave. location lot is just a little over 1/2 acre. Newspaper maybe not innacurate. A derelict V16 Cadillac, some Duesenberg relics parts. But I have noticed a Renault 12, what a strange place to be.
Concerning Mr. Kleve’s personality, many things have been written and he certainly cannot speak for himself anymore
But there are 2 things we have to acknowledge:
- Karl Kleve could never produce any proof of ownership, no bill of sale, no title no nothing.
- Karl Kleve received payment for his Ferrari relics.
At the end of the day whatever you want to accept it or not, the Ferrari was saved, as it was certain to return to mother nature otherwise. And certainly not a virtuous act, I agree.
I have a 2 lbs file researching 375 Plus for decades (I am still looking for the sixth one!) and this is my interest in this thread.
But at the end of the day, this is an absolute disaster.
Best regards,
Patrick Faucompre
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For me, Monsieur Faucompre, we all have bias. My previous statement was worded specifically to call attention to this. It is my belief that this is innate in all of us. I realize not all will agree with this.

I see where the problem is: 4201 is next door. The actual address is 4219 Harrison Ave.
You can find an aerial views through google or bing maps and they will show modern buildings constructed by the new owner.
When we were working, the land was vacant and quite overgrown.
You can also find information about the land at hamiltoncountyauditor.org if you select 'Real Estate' from the top left and then search for 4219 Harrison Ave.
The auditor lists the property as being 1.22 acres so we are both half-right.. or wrong(!)
If you are on the property page you can look under Transfer on the left column and see when the property was sold from Mr. Kleve.
You can click Map and see geographical data from the Plat books which will give the lot lines and dimensions and is an interesting overlay comparison to the modern aerial photos from bing or google maps.

I also looked further today and found aerial images of the spot(s) where I found the Cord 810 front end and Duesenberg fenders in the shed at the rear of J XXX*, the apartment building basement on L XXX* where we found the Daimler chassis and where Dave Noran authenticated J102 as being the 2nd Duesenberg J model engine, the house on B XXX* where we found the 1950's Cadillac ambulance and the 2 Allison V-12 aircraft engines in the side yard, etc.
*I have left out the full address and street names to give the neighbors peace. Happy to DM anyone who cares about this trivia and promises not to bother people with a modern treasure hunt (it's all gone).

Yes, but of course it perfectly fit the eclecticism, if you will.

I'm not sure where you're going with this one, but I'll be interested to watch from the sideline.

Again, something outside the scope of my involvement in his affairs. There's been much discussion of this both for and against. For me it is something to watch from the audience seats.

My hope for 0384 is that it soon finds sympathetic hands who will take what is and what was and from this soup reconstitute the best possible approximation of the historical artifact that knew a glorious day in Ferrari's story.

I am grateful for your research and persistence. Certainly any of us in Vintage would be fascinated to learn any and all of what you've learned, when that day comes.

Merci Monsieur Faucompre et Salut!
Dave Powers

 

Dave,

Thank-you for explanations concerning Google and Bing, but according to the Western Hills Press, the auction address is 4201 Harrisson Ave, so I hope they didn't auctioned someone else's property!
4201 has been measured as 175 x 160 foot, which is just over 1/2 acre, if math is correct.
They also claimed that 80 cars were there at the time, which is pretty hard to believe, except if the remains are chassis stacked in a certain way. So half right or ... wrong.

Let's seat, relax and see how this whole affair will end... if it ends in the near future...

I am attaching papers' article, courtesy of the Western Hills Press.

Best regards.
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Hello Patrick,
Thank you for the article.
Yes, in fact it is incorrect in stating 4201 Harrison as the address.
4201 Harrison is a separately owned property immediately to the east of what was Karl Kleve's property. 4201 Harrison is 153.01 X 186.81 feet (and noted as IRR [Irregular] in shape) and the auditor's math for this is 0.431 acres. The property consists of an apartment building constructed in 1965 with parking in the rear. I remember it well from our time working next door.
Karl Kleve's property where 0384 had slept was immediately adjacent at 4219 Harrison. 4219 Harrison is 1.22 acres (much more room for stacking cars!). The property was transferred from Karl Kleve at the end of 2002 and the new owner built apartments on it in 2003. Again, when we were working on it in 1990 it was all vacant land covered only in weeds, vines, trees, and old cars.
It is easy to see why the paper would make the mistake- with a wooded lot there is no mailbox, no address marker, so they go with the nearest address in this case the neighbor.
I apologize as the auditor's website isn't the easiest to negotiate and there are definitely some tricks to navigating it. I am always happy to send screen shots from there to anyone if they so desire.

Monsieur Faucompre, I was acquainted with Chuck Hassan and the Lunken family (father and sons). I would love to see a photo of Ebby or Charles with 0384 if you ever come across something like this in your research.

Best Regards,
Dave

 

Monsieur Giles Patrick Faucompre – two of your points :

● Karl Kleve could never produce any proof of ownership, no bill of sale, no title no nothing.
● Karl Kleve received payment for his Ferrari relics.

Karl Kleve owned 0384AM since 1958. The Courts, the Federal Justice System, the State of Ohio and the Ferrari world acknowledged his ownership. Kleve gave proof of the original ’Bill of Sale’ and proved he paid $2,500 for the car in 1958 and his ownership was accepted by the Courts. After the Ferrari carcass was stolen, later on in 1993, the Ohio Department of Motor Vehicles issued an "Ohio Certificate of Title" by a Court Order. Kleve transferred that original Ohio Certificate of Title to Swaters' agent Lancksweert during the Settlement Agreement in September 1999, in which two checks were issued to Karl Kleve amounting to $625,000. That original Ohio title then passed to Jacques Swaters.

Swaters had already been granted ownership rights to the Ferrari he bought from Michael Kruch by a Belgian Court in 1990, referred to at that time as; 'the remains of the Ferrari 375 plus 0384AM'. In time, Swaters acquired the original engine stamped 0384AM, along with many missing parts, then, he bought another engine numbered 0394AM. Swaters privately financed essentially a complete rebuild/restoration of the car under expert guidance of Ferrari's experienced craftsmen - entirely done at the Ferrari facility in Modena, Italy.

Both Kleve and Swaters were granted ownership rights recognized by the U.S. Courts and Belgium Courts. Those rights were clearly defined, yet they had to be merged to create a complete 0384AM Ferrari. For years Kleve and Swaters had these ongoing competing claims on pieces, parts, and the ownership rights of 0384AM. Those competing rights were inherited on the death of Karl Kleve in 2003, by his daughter Kristine Kleve Lawson, and then later in Swaters’ passing in 2010, to his daughter Florence Swaters.

No one ever contested the ownership rights in either of the Probate Courts of Karl Kleve or Jacques Swaters, so ownership was perfected a long time ago for each of those parties, but, in separate countries. Kleve’s daughter Kristie sold off 100% of her parts and ownership ‘’package’’ in 2010/2011 to a Ferrari collector, and Jacques Swaters' daughter Florence kept hers.

In 2013, Florence Swaters agreed to settle the competing claims raised by the Ohio lawsuit that had been filed against Kristie-Kleve-Lawson for fraud, prior to Kristie Kleve Lawson’s sell-off in 2010.

It was in 2013, that the owner of the Kleve ‘’package’’ arranged a settlement with Florence Swaters directly with the legal assistance of Bonham's. This was endorsed by Kristine Kleve Lawson and all parties agreed for Bonham's to transfer the ‘’bundle’’, ie: the entire 0384AM original car by a public sale. That Settlement Agreement terminated all competing ownership claims and authorized Bonham's the right to auction the car 'without reserve' – something all parties have agreed to.

The Settlement Agreement endorsed by the Kleve heirs and the purchaser of the Kleve ‘’package of parts and rights", Florence Swaters agreed to settle the matter upon dismissal of the actions in the U.S. Courts along with all disputes concerning ownership of the Ferrari 375 Plus. Now, with the binding agreement endorsed in the interest of all parties, Bonham's has the exclusive right to transfer the vehicle with all the original parts to the highest bidder who will become the new custodian at the Bonham's Goodwood Festival of Speed Sale, on 27 June 2014. On that date, the Ferrari 375 plus #0384AM will be reunited for the first time since 1958 – and that is very good news for all Ferrarists and historians.

 

- where? when? There never was any Bill of Sale in court! Kleve couldn't even provide the VIN # in the Police Report

- acknowledgement IS the problem: Who IS the Ferrari world?

- OK, Let's analyse that Bill of Sale, item by item.
- This "original "Bill of Sale, as you said, is a totally forged document: from the bad quality of the paper support to all of its content down to the fake signature.
Kimberly was a very sophisticated gentleman and a paper magnate industrialist: he would only used embroidery paper head for such a document

-Content is a bad translation from French (or maybe some Belge?) into bad English: you never say in English:" with address": this is typical French wording translation.

- Kimberly's address in Chicago is very strange: it is hard to imagine Kimberly living at this low key address. Kimberly had many properties allover the nation, just look at his Miami property that he latter sold to the King of Jordan.

- NO: he said he paid $16,000 and had it since the the EARLY SIXTIES: that amount exceeds the original price of the vehicle when new; that amount is perhaps 1,600, more in line with scrap prices Kleve used to pay.

- Bill of Sale mentions something different: wrong amount and wrong date.

- Karl Kleve admitted he never met Kimberly. He didn't know Kimberly and Kimberly had nothing to do anymore with this car at that date.

Howard Hively was the owner since 1955, this Bill of Sale is definitely not in line.

- nobody in the Ferrari world use GP roadster: this specific wording comes from Kleve's Police report!

- 4,340 what? chilometri? miles?

- Don't even try to answer that: there NEVER was any speedometer in a 375 Plus!

SIGNATURE: the signature is a pure forgery: original attached.

Fake Bill of Sale from A to Z: very easy to prove a forgery.

- Wrong! He couldn't establish ownership since he had no document, No Bill of Sale, No title, No proof of ownership.

- Are-you sure about that date?

- the title you are referring to was a Court Order Title issued in 1997. We all know what that means. 1997 was the first time that Kleve had any documents pertaining to 0384. That allowed Kleve's agent Daniels to list the case as stolen and to induce Philippe Lanksveert to pay for such a document.

- OMG! - Wrong again! That was a 1997 document.

- The car was released to Michel Kruch in 1990, using the Atlanta Federal Court Acquittal.

- Documents Swaters and Lanksveert (as both equal partners in the car) invested in 0384 in 1990 as partners.

- Wrong again: check # 292498 dated Sep.92 1999 of $225,000 was issued to National Search Services, Mark Daniels's company (we know funds were collected) and another check # 292497, dated Sep.2, 1999 of $400,000 was issued to Karl Kleve AND Mark Daniels, of which Kleve mentioned that he never received those funds.

-wrong

- if Swaters was granted ownership rights from Michel Cruch, why would-he be hiding and competing the car as 0394?

-that is not true, Kleve could not prove ownership in ANY court, but I stand corrected.

- so why all this mess?

- the claim in Ohio is listed as a Breach of Contract.

- see attached copy of that settlement.

- Oh No!

- Why is it still in Court under Appeal?

you are missing some party...

- We will see!

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Also as far as the latest information posted, on that reproduced newspaper clipping, why does Kleve say he paid $16,000 for it when the Bill of Sale says $2500?

Also regarding the original engine, sold to Fred Leydorf, a Detroit auto engineer, what did it cost the restorers to get that engine back? What year was that engine purchased by the restorers? Did the adding of the original engine make it worth much more than the reproduced cast block?

 

From old press release: On 09 January 2014, at a reception at their new headquarters building in London, Bonhams announced that they have been given the privilege of offering the Ferrari 375 Plus, chassis s/n 0384 AM, at their sale at the Goodwood Festival of Speed in July, 2014.

 

Friday, 27 JUNE 2014, to be correct.

Marcel Massini

 

What is everyones opinion on the price 0384 will sell for? Maybe 10 million or more?

 

Pierre Bardinon’s 0396AM/ 1954 Lemans Winner/ 375 Plus got an offer for 22,000,000 Euro in May 2014. That was declined by the family, who said it would take 35,000,000 Euro to start talking serious. Ralph Lauren’s 375 Plus, 0398TF will never be for sale. As Giorgio Perfetti knows well of the Bardinon valuation at 35’000’000 – it only takes two people in the room that have to have a Plus to rock the Ferrari world again. If you look at this 500TRC, a 4 banger that was turned down at 6’000’000 Euro – ( he wants 8’000’000 Euro ) just figure it’s a must-have in a serious collection and could raise the roof. I figure over 20’000’000 Euro 'PLUS' for a fantastic Ferrari 375 Plus...

 

A very interesting post, Mr. Faucompre, I read it and was surprised by what you have claimed. Can I perhaps ask some questions based on your post?

That is quite a claim, were you involved in the court case or are you involved in the bonhams sale? If not can I ask how you know this information?

[quote/]- the title you are referring to was a Court Order Title issued in 1997. We all know what that means. 1997 was the first time that Kleve had any documents pertaining to 0384. That allowed Kleve's agent Daniels to list the case as stolen and to induce Philippe Lanksveert to pay for such a document. [/quote]

Yes and we all know the story of Mr. Daniels and his cheques

[quote/]- The car was released to Michel Kruch in 1990, using the Atlanta Federal Court Acquittal.[/quote]

I have read this thread at least twice and never read any information regarding an Atlanta Federal Court Acquittal of Mr Kruch......

[quote/]- Documents Swaters and Lanksveert (as both equal partners in the car) invested in 0384 in 1990 as partners.[/quote]

After three unknown intermediary owners (who suspiciously owned the car for a day or two each and a strange event at the Belgian docks)

[quote/]- Wrong again: check # 292498 dated Sep.92 1999 of $225,000 was issued to National Search Services, Mark Daniels's company (we know funds were collected) and another check # 292497, dated Sep.2, 1999 of $400,000 was issued to Karl Kleve AND Mark Daniels, of which Kleve mentioned that he never received those funds.[/quote]

Indeed

[quote/]- if Swaters was granted ownership rights from Michel Cruch, why would-he be hiding and competing the car as 0394?[/quote]

Because Mr. Cruch couldn't legally sell a stolen car but could sell a car that didn't exist, #0394AM, why shouldn't Mr. Swaters also claim ownership of something that couldn't be claimed.

[quote/]-that is not true, Kleve could not prove ownership in ANY court, but I stand corrected.[/quote]

Another interesting claim...... Do you base this on your claim that the Bill of sale was fraudulent? Ahem, how do you know this?

[quote/]- so why all this mess? [/quote]

Because ego's and piles of money always corrupt.......... Either Ocean Joe or OneBugatti/ Metalfinder are trying to get a bigger slice of the pie/ rip each other off/ play the litigation game etc....

[quote/] - Why is it still in Court under Appeal [/quote]

ditto



To finish, and entirely up to you if you answer this we have had a notorious cast of characters on this thread including regulars Ocean Joe, One Bugatti/ Metalfinder and single posters such as the lovely Mbzgurl and most have had some play towards a pay day. I have nothing to do with anything and live on the other side of the world minding my own business, oh and I sure as hell ant going to profit out of any of the parties. As such the only thing I am interested in is some sense of fairness with this. Karl Kleve owned the car imo, after all there were no other claimants at the time it was stolen, and it was stolen before passing through several sets of hands in extremely murky circumstances and ending up with Swaters & Lanksweert. Claims that it doesn't matter because he was going to let it disintegrate, well he own it, he can do what he pleases. I believe Mr. Kleve and his estate are owed some money from the sale........ Anything else isn't justice imo.
My question is simple though, what is your role in the sorry saga?

 

The Ohio Appellate Court has made a ruling. It is public record. What the aftermath from it is I do not know.

Jeff

 

http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/1/2014/2014-ohio-2252.pdf

Ruling is that Swaters motion to enforce the settlement agreement and to dismiss all claims by Ford/ Lawson in a dispute is dismissed, thus allowing Ford/Lawson to continue to dispute the settlement agrreement.

I would imagine this won't affect the physical auction, only the distribution of the proceeds of the auction.

M

 

money, money, money........

 

One forumite here said: "Undisputed and Identity never called into question, except when Swaters had it altered to 0394AM to hide it, then had it altered back to 0384AM..."
In America the FBI would prosecute for that changing a car's serial number, especially when they stood to make a tidy profit. Is there no one calling Swaters a car thief just because he was a hero in the Ferrari community for decades? Whoever uses the word "rescue" to explain why this car was taken is misinformed, one man's rescue is another man's car theft. I am sure there is plenty of swag in Bel Air that I could "rescue" but if I go there with my truck and fill it up when some movie star is absent, that's called "theft.:

Going back to Kleve, in those old articles implying mental illness, does that mean those stories he worked on the atom bomb during WWII were made up? I note he had a degree in Engineering, doesn't that show he was capable. By the way I knew a guy who was a bandleader, had a machine shop, Don Ricardo, during the war he was given some little parts to make, didn't find out until after the war it was for the atom bomb.

Also i occasionally help a hoarder as he gets kicked out of one rest home after another; it's a certain mindset where you clutter your surroundings with stuff so you will never be bored; so you will always have something to do; something that awaits you. But even if a hoarder has a ferrari buried under his clutter, it shouldn't be stolen from him...

 

Everyone seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0GXfYNwk-o

 

Thanks!!

I have to believe that, somewhere..Karl Kleve is smiling.

I really like the wire frame of the original bits, too!!!

"Worthless", indeed.

 

Is there a categorical list of what on actual car is original (not destroyed original parts included) and what is reproduced. IIRC, the only original pieces are "part" of the chassis, the engine, and handful of other parts. Non-original are the body, gas tank, all gauges, seats, interior, gearbox (?), rear-end, some (?) of the brake drums, etc.

Anyone able to shed light on or correct this? Just wondering, Thx!

 

Not too sure this link worked?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNRXg0CrcgE