Instructor killed at Summit Point today

Small world. Now that I checked out your name lol. How have you been?

The incident was a Summit issue in my opinion. They need barriers at that spot, you get launched into the trees if you off track.

 

Holy ****! The car almost folded in half. If that was a 30mph inpact they must use paper mache for the frame rails.

Yes anyone who drives on a closed course, even a "casual" day like this or "tourist" driving on the Nuburgring, should understand the risks.
However, the track has some obligation to making it as safe as is reasonably can be expected to be.
The Carrera GT crash in CA a few years ago comes to mind. No way should they have positioned that wall the way it was, apparently to make room for a children's play area at the expense of a potentially more brutal impact angle of any cars going off there. They deserved to get sued.

If cars continue to leave a turn and crash into trees, the course owners should be obligated to install some kind of barrier, or remove trees.

It's in their interests to not only protect themselves against lawsuits but it's in no way good publicity to have people dying...
The Nurburgring has gone a bit overboard with their barriers/catch fences IMO that change the feel of the place, mainly to protect spectators at VLN or 24hr races, but I bet you'll never hear of a spectator (at any of the big areas like Bruennchen, Hatzenbach, Wehrseifen, Flugplatz etc not someone standing along the fence at Fuchsrohre for example) dying at the Ring

 

Again, Jefferson Circuit is not a racetrack. I've been around it at speed for solo and drifto events and it does/did have protection but short runoff. Have had to replace entire end of kid relative's drifto car that hit padded wall there years ago. The Circuit is crammed up against the main in one spot and bet it is surrounded by more tank size rockoutcroppings you'll find all over the motorsport park.

However, it was recently expanded and to my knowledge the expanded segment had not been open to any event. Will be interesting to see if this happened on the new segment and if it was indeed open for business. I was there in that paddock when it happened but not watching becuz bikini moonbounce. There was youtube in-car video of the new segment posted last winter.

 

Doing fine!

Yes, and they did add some walls and tire barriers to stop cars rather than launch them, after that...

 

I have only driven the Jefferson Circuit at moderate speeds - we (PCA) have used it for HPDC, which is a full day learning experience for brand new track drivers. In fact, it is mandatory prior to driving in any PCA Potomac DE. The only offs I have seen have been contained and I don't recall seeing any damaged cars. We had planned on using the expanded Jefferson for a complete DE in May, but the course was not completed, so Shenandoah was used instead.

As far as trees and other barriers, it is virtually impossible to completely prevent a serious accident on a track - and I am referring to DE's not races. SP Main has had a number of improvements made over the years, I have not seen any significant offs between T2 and T3 in recent years, there is now a gravel pit on the outside of T3 that buffers the trees beyond, and other areas of the track have more tire walls. However, saying all of that, last year a driver and instructor went two wheels off track left on the main straight approaching T1, the driver over corrected, shot across the track and up the hill on the right over tires and into the rail fence resulting in the instructor losing his leg.

One thing that I have learned driving with and instructing for PCA Potomac is that the organization running the DE must set the tone and remain diligent - working with flaggers - to maintain appropriate "safe driving" for each run group. But perhaps the most important factor is the in car instructor. We have drilled into our heads that we are or should be in control and if the driver refuses to listen, that is the end of his/her session. This is obviously for the safety of the student driver, other drivers and clearly the instructor in the car.

Now, with regard to track time later this week at SP Main for the FCA - who is planning on driving? The chief instructor is excellent and I expect that we will run very controlled sessions for drivers with instructors. At least if I am your instructor, you should not be driving over your head, which does not mean that you will be inhibited. My last student was soloed and we went out in our respective cars with me planning on demonstrating proper passing techniques - the only problem was that I couldn't keep up with him.

Take care and hope to see at least some of you later this week.

Rob in Potomac

 

Now this is a question worth answering!

 

Negligence---know or should have known. End of story....$$$.

 

From another forum:

"That GTO is from our neck of the woods. He is a Marine who is being deployed in the next couple of weeks. The engine in that car actually belongs to my boss here at the shop. They are friends and the GTO's engine blew up several weeks ago, so we swapped short blocks for him so he could enjoy the car his last couple weeks stateside and will slowly build up his block while he's gone. That car is supercharged so it is not shy in the horsepower department. It looks like the same tires that were on it when it was here. I certainly wouldn't trust them for more than a lunch-time drive around on track, but that's my opinion."

 

I actually got side-tracked and dropped a comment, so I'll reintroduce it.

I disagree kverges. If you blow up the picture 400% like I did, you can see the center of the right front tire is suspect. It looks low on tread going from center on to the outside. Tires are like cockroches, if one is going bad, there are others.

My opinion...I personally would not have riden on a track at speed, with those tires from what I can see from the pictures. Granted they are not in front of me. Sad day for everyone involved.

 

jeesh.... supercharged V8..... worn out crappy looking tires.... (presumably) inexperienced driver.... no roll cage/harnnesses..... I would be leary about riding to lunch in that let alone around a track.

 

Oh boy, this adds to the dynamic of the incident.

Question for tech-
1.where the tires looked at?
2. Any oil residue near the S-charger? I've heard of some Prochargers under boost blowing oil past the seals and leaving a mess behind and have seen several cars wiped out by their own oil.

Question for instructor- did he know the familiarity the driver had with that power/engine setup with the s-charger? ...assuming they even had a conversation on the car & etc.

That car was well over 500hp Im guessing.

 

I think what's going on (IMO at least) is the driver didn't deflate the tires a bit to compensate for heat/pressure build up, so there was excessive wear in the middle, and a smaller contact patch (which may or may not have been part of the accident). but the tread depth and overall tire condition seems ok.

 

You know a while back I was speaking with someone who was there the day that video was made. I asked him if he was going back this year and he said no, he didn't like the track.

It's funny that it didn't occur to me until I read davem's comment, but "safety" is an odd word to put in the name of that track.

re: NYST on Vimeo

 

rumor is the "safety" part was added to the name to get it past zoning and convince the neighbors that it wouldn't be a race track.

 

I would think trees would be the last thing you should be able to hit at a track. But look at Summit, CMP-our home track, and even LeMans (yes I know that is different but still). Surly there is some track member in logging or some logger that might take them down for the wood? Freak accident not suppose to happen but damn it did. Similar to CMP. Trees don't move very much.

 

Excellent post Rob.

I think it sounds like there were multiple failures in this particular event that led to this tragedy. I've done some of the Ferrari sponsored events there in the past and I wasn't concerned at all.

I also think that people are quickly equating the Jefferson circuit with the SP circuit and wondering why there are trees. I've never been on that one and don't know what the issues are now that it's expanded.

The most important thing I've learned over the years of attending these events is to adequately gauge the competency of the organization running the event. After that be very careful about the other new to you drivers on the track. I don't like the large mixed open to all marques events with a bunch of twenty something guys driving out there.

I've been a victim of a poorly run event once with idiot corner workers and paid the price. This one sounds quite dubious.

At the end of the day though this ain't checkers.

 

Tires:
Sorry, I'm not seeing any bald tire, only a bad photo. Maybe the center is worn but that photo won't determine it. I DO see what appears to a very well inflated rear tire.
From the account given by the witness it seems to me the driver was in well over his head.
No less tragic and my condolences to those effected.

EDIT; A friend has a same generation GTO that I have driven. It's chassis is outclassed by the engine even in stock form.

 

I have a good friend, pro driver, who was instructing a new 458 challenge driver - first lap out the driver flipped the car before he even had a chance to instruct him - bad day - no one was hurt

 

That almost sounds like a throttle malfunction...or floor mat jam.

Still, there was an ignition key.

 

I seriously doubt that.

Trees IMHO are much more dangerous than any other immobile objects on the track.

Remember LeMans 2013 - Allan Simonsen's death was due to the barriers striking the trees.

The tracks in Texas have no trees around - All we have is open areas to go off or a tire wall. It makes it much safer. I would never track my car at Jefferson or that track in the Pacific NW. I forget its name but it has plenty of trees.

Ritesh.

 

Strange how the couple people here complaining about trees live in Texas.

 

Hey Now - We have plenty of trees in Texas. We just aren't dumb enough to put them near the track out cone! ;-)

 

Your take on this is correct.

As long as the street tire doesn't actually come apart, it's likely to be safer than a race tire, especially on a stock street car. Typically race track accidents happen when a car runs off the track in a corner. The higher the cornering speed, the more dangerous the situation. Race tires don't do all that much to help you go faster on the straights, they help you go faster through the corners though.

Apparently this fellow ran out of traction, but to claim a race tire would have saved him doesn't make sense. Exceeding the traction limit of a racing tire would have resulted in a similar accident, just at a higher speed.

In addition, since racing tires tend to maintain grip up to a point and then suddenly "let go" and since a street tire will operate at much higher slip angles while howling and complaining loudly, there is a good argument in favor of street tires when it comes to keeping a beginner out of trouble. In other words, a street tire will promote slower lap times, slower corner speeds, and will also provide increased warning before losing grip.

 

If that's accurate, that's where the lawyers will start

 

Track owners will come around when they get hit with a multi-million dollar judgment in a wrongful death action..