The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

All trademark infringements and copyright violations by commercial organisations in a variety of other countries, or counterfeiting of goods.

Please point to me to evidence to substantiate the fact that Ferrari hold such for the P4 in any country, and could apply it to an individual who possessed a replica of a P4 rather than a commercial organisation.

I agree it would not be a particularly good move to go driving such a replica around Italy, as the law is not always applied correctly, but in law its not illegal to do so.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/british/169921-ferrari-has-pontiac-fiero-355-replica-siezed-but-misses-noble-p4.html

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/140136811-post1.html

Can you find any individual in Italy that possesses a replica P4?

I'm willing to bet you can't.

Think I'm wrong....?

 

They went after 250 GTO replica makers and also the company in Italy that rebodied GTE's as TR's or Spiders and the only reason they did not win is because this company had done this back in the day when they were new.

So please you need to stop thinking of P4's only and accept Italy is now a non-replica friendly country, as the many articles confirm. It is overdue in my opinion and needs to extend further than Italy's borders IMO.
Pete
ps: love to see all those GTO replicas crushed, but all the original parts removed first and used as spares for genuine cars only.

 

I guess most of us have a loathing for poorly executed replicas and the destruction of perfectly restorable GTs as donor cars. However, it is not quite as clear cut as that.

I believe at least one owner of a genuine GTO has a perfect copy, which he is prepared to thrash around the circuits rather than risk his $30m + baby. There are also the Lancia D50s, various 'Silver Arrows' made by Crossthwaite & Gardner for the manufacturers' own collections, countless D Type Jaguars and so on, the majority of which are pretty close to perfection.

And of course there is the oft mentioned Bugatti fraternity - who have a much more liberal attitude to top quality bitsas.

I would certainly prefer to see a superb replica in action than be restricted to viewing museum pieces at a concours. And, let's be honest, many racing fields would be seriously depleted without the appearance of some of these cars.

 

This discussion is specifically about replica P4s in Italy not replica's in general, thats a discussion for another thread.

 

I thought it was about P3/4. If you mean the Tangent, there's already a thread about P4 Replicas and "what-if's" in Italy - I linked to it on previous page.


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Agreed. Quite happy for the mods to move my post to a more appropriate place.

As we approach 9000 posts, there is obviously much more to say about 0846 and I'm not clear on how we diverted to replicas.

John

 

We've diverted to replica's due to PAUL500 is building an argument on opinions versus research.

Yes. And if you would read what others have written, you would realize that this link, that I posted previously, is specifically about just that, replica P4's in Italy.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/british/169921-ferrari-has-pontiac-fiero-355-replica-siezed-but-misses-noble-p4.html

And furthermore, it does not matter if it is a replica of a P4 or not. A Ferrari replica in Italy is a Ferrari replica in Italy. It is not like they have different rules towards replica's based on what model it is. That's ludicrous. You are arguing a non argument that quite frankly, if you have read this thread, has been discussed MANY times before.

I can't believe we are wasting pages arguing this. It is well known that Ferrari has a strong policy against building replicas, mostly when said replica's are in Italy. This is a non discussion. It is common Ferrari knowledge that they do not allow replica's.

Even outside of Italy Ferrari's stance on this is more then available to the general public.

They have been very public against all replica cars, whether modern such as the 360's or vintage such as the P4's/Cal Spyders, such as the cars you mentioned in your: how did it start for you thread....

From Wikipedia:Ferrari filed a lawsuit demanding McBurnie and four others to stop producing and selling Ferrari replicas.[1] Miami Vice producers, on the other hand, wanted no legal troubles, and accepted Ferrari's offer of two free 1986 Testarossas on the condition that the replicas be demolished.

 

I am somewhat astounded that some here believe that the requirement is to disprove that the chassis is not 0846. Incorrect, the objective is to prove that Piper 0003 is based upon the chassis remains of 0846. 0003 is what was sold and what it was knowingly bought as. The 0846 story is a subsequent hypothesis that remains to be incontrovertibly proven.

Anyone that believes that this is based upon the remains of 0846 must also acknowledge that there is an * attached to that belief.

 

I think there are some of us that are astounded that this car was supposedly built from scratch as 0003 yet there is absolutely no history of that or how it was done. Were are also astounded that the frame shows repairs and that there is absolutely no history of how that was done in 0003, but there are definite possibilities of how it occurred in 0846.

To get a true answer all the facts must be revealed. From every believed phase of its existence. And believe it or not, how this frame was built are part of the facts.

People say that it was built from scratch as 0003, that is their position. But there is nothing whatsoever to justify that position.

Finding out history lies in looking at all the facts from every side of what is possible.

Not just looking at one side of an argument.

I guess it matters if you are here for the argument or here for uncovering the history of the chassis. Whether that history is that of 0846 or 0003.

 

Amen brother.

 

Thank you for the timely reminder.

I have been looking at the proof set out in the JG document. Page 100 shows the only picture of the tube damaged in the 1967 Targa Floria and repaired by Wayne. The tube appears to be one of the braces behind the bulkhead on the left of the car. Page 60 refers to Vaccarella forcibly hitting the right side on the kerb and the damage being visible in the chassis.

Looking at the picture of the damaged car on page 101 clearly showing the damage to the wheel rims on the right is it creditable that this was the cause of the tube damage on the left ?

 

Can we please stop referring to the chassis damage repaired by Wayne at the Targa Florio. This has been shown to be incorrect; the result of a mis-understanding. Please see the following post by respected historian Doug Nye, written in 2004. Ferrari 330 P4 - Page 4 - The Nostalgia Forum - The AUTOSPORT Forums
"Wayne Sparling is a much-respected and extremely popular – somewhat reclusive - figure in the American Ferrari world.
Through mutual friends I have now double-checked with Mr Sparling (yesterday) – who does not wish to be drawn more publicly into this matter.
Contrary to Jim Glickenhaus’s statement earlier in this thread I understand that:
1 – Wayne Sparling NEVER attended a Sicilian Targa Florio.
2 – Wayne Sparling NEVER repaired Targa Florio damage to any Ferrari P3/4
3 – He does not remember any Targa Florio crash “quite well” – but he does recall a Daytona practice crash.
4 - Jim Glickenhaus claimed: "He told me and many others who were standing around my car at Quail that not only had the chassis of 0846 been damaged as I have described it in the 104+ pages I sent you but that HE HAD PERSONALLY REPAIRED THAT DAMAGE WITH BRAZING AND THAT THAT REPAIR AND MANY OTHER DETAILS OF 0846'S CHASSIS WERE KNOWN AND PERSONALLY DONE BY HIM...."
Wrong. This is actually Mr Sparling’s story in reference to the spider P4 crashed by Scarfiotti during Wednesday night practice before the 1967 Daytona 24-Hours. It appears that Gerald Roush also misunderstood Mr Sparling’s recollection.
5 - "Later in the day Dick Merritt commented: "If Wayne says that's the chassis then that's the chassis."
Presumably if Mr Sparling conversely says that's NOT the chassis he worked on then that's not the chassis?
Mr G. relates: - "As an aside he confirmed that the damage on 0856 caused when it backed into the wall and the repair to that sheet metal was exactly as he remembered it. 0856's sheet metal on the lawn at Quail is original and the hammer/repair marks are quite visible as well."
This is the correct story, as related. Since Mr Sparling repaired one works P4 at Daytona 1967, not two, this apparently excludes ‘0846’ from having been that P4…"(edited for space)
Also, logic says that this could not have happened as the 0846 document says. Consider; why would Ferrari repair the car at the circuit when there was no way of it continuing in the race? They were only down in Sicily and would have taken the car back to the factory at Maranello.
2nd - If they did, for some reason, repair the car at the circuit why would they, with a full team of works mechanics on hand, use a non-works mechanic?

Nathan

 

Nathan,

Wasn't #0846 the only P4 spider at the Daytona 24hr in 1967? So isn't it possible that Wayne got the repair details right but the race wrong? Scarfiotti must have crashed #0846 in practice ... or the spider reference is wrong, or driver wrong ...

http://www.sportscardigest.com/1967-24-hours-of-daytona-race-profile/

Note #0856 was a berlinetta, only #0846 was a spider in that race.
Pete

 

"Wrong. This is actually Mr Sparling’s story in reference to the spider P4 crashed by Scarfiotti during Wednesday night practice before the 1967 Daytona 24-Hours."

There was one and only one factory spyder at Daytona in 1967, it was 0846. There were no others.

 

Sorry I am new but appreciate the direction. Any view on the damage sustained relative to the right hand curbing ?

 

Along Came A Spyder
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What happened to 25 ?

 

Gents
I think there is a simple explanation for the confusion over what Wayne was saying. There’s no doubt that he repaired a P4 at some time, but it was not at the Targa Florio, as he never went there. So there was confusion over the event.
But he was at Daytona. So which car did he repair?
Reports at the time say that it was the car that Scarfiotti crashed (gently) into the wall. So this would have been 0856, the berlinetta that Scarfiotti was driving.
Now, fast forward 37 years and there in front of Wayne is a P4 berlinetta. We can’t expect Wayne to remember, or even know, the chassis number of the car he repaired, but he would no doubt remember that it was a berlinetta. So, he naturally assumes that this berlinetta is the one he worked on?
Of course he doesn’t know that when it ran at Daytona in 1967 this particular car ran as a spyder, so this can’t be the car he worked on - he worked on a berlinetta, Scarfiotti's car.
So, a simple, honest mistake that anyone could have made 37 years later?
Nathan

 

Hum,
respected historian Doug Nye also say: "Back at Daytona in february Amon/Bandini shared the first syder '0856'." and a lot of others mistakes in his article about the P4 in Old Motor in October 1979.

 

I don't have the knowledge to make any judgement on this case but it is worth remembering that in 1979 there were just 3 or 4 books devoted to Ferrari history, contemporary journals often contained errors of fact and few people had an interest in recording telaio.

Also, that history is an iterative process, As more information emerges it is quite legitimate for historians to review and perhaps amend their original views.

Doug Nye is a widely respected historian of many years' standing, who no doubt writes based on the best available information available to him AT THAT TIME. Which probably means that what he wrote 35 years ago does not always represent his current view!

 

John
You are quite right. Back in 1979 everyone thought that 0856 was the Daytona 24hrs winner. Ferrari had bodied it as a spider, painted it up with #23 and presented it as such to Dr Wilkins, who then sold it to David Clarke. It was only later as more research was done, and more information came to light that this view was changed.
Nathan

 

+1

 

Agreed. Whatever car Sparling did repair or did not repair at Daytona 1967 is quite irrelevant in this case though....the point of interest is that Sparling is NOT a credible source to cite that 003/"0846" today has repaired crash damage similar to the Targa Florio repairs of the original car.