Question for Stooge Brain Trust

I'm not a stooge so I guess I'm not qualified....But, a guy local to me bought a 328 a few months back and changed the belts with motor in the car. It was a car serviced prior by Dave Helms

 

Pertty easy to change belts on a 3x8. everything is accessible through the passenger side wheel well. Hardest part is getting the AC compressor out of the way. See Birdman's tutorial Replacing Ferrari 308 Mondial timing belts

 

Works for me.

Just go to "birdman308.com" and look under Service Procedures.

 

To do a correct timing belt service on these cars it takes about 30 hours.

 

It can be done in one BBQ day with the stooges but everything has to line up just right and you cannot change the seals or remove the cam shafts. Forget about adjusting valves too.

Start early.

 

You should get a Porsche beater so you can go to the new Porsche Motorsport in Carson, they are building away at it. Makes me want to trash a boxster

 

Remove everything down to the belts. 4-6 hours.
Remove CIS, injectors, valve covers, dizzy, cam shafts and seals. 4-6 hours
Adjust valves, redo seals, install camshafts 4-6 hours.
Install belts, tensioners, cam timing, put AC back, put alternator back, rebuild water pump, change oil, change transmission fluid, brake fluid, warm up, bleed, test drive, reinstall hood. 4-8 hours.

You will spend 20-30 hours, if you did it right.

 

Not even close. I think you are thinking of a complete major with cam seals, valve adjustment, fluids, etc. Swapping belts is an easy one day job, 1/2 with experience. Majors are due based on mileage. No need to adjust valves if they were adjusted 2k miles ago, regardless of when. And no need to replace seals if they aren't leaking. In this case sounds like the belts should be changed along with oil and coolant if it hasn't been done. Brake fluid too. But they don't necessarily have to be done with the belts. As for cam seals, I changed mine the first time after 25 years because that is when one of them started weeping a little.

 

Not doable at stooge be que. It is possible for you to have car very appart and get tips or complete a part you don't fully understand. For example you could cam time or debate one of many asssembly mark set up methods for example. You have to decide whether you are doing a major or a belt swap.

 

We never just replace belts, we do a complete major .

 

If your customers accept that as normal, more power to you. I, on the other hand, would not.

 

This is about right. It's several day's work. Valve adjustment and cam timing takes longer "in the car". I prefer working on a 355 to a 3x8.

 

Yeah, I don't like transverse motors. I bet it's fun leaning over the motor to work on the bank that boarders the passenger compartment.

 

In a warp way, so do I.

 

Setting on a stand, at working height, plenty of light. One side is as easy to access as the other. If you're working with floor jacks and furniture dollies, taking the engine out is a struggle. With the right equipment, it takes some time but isn't particularly difficult.

 

John,

You can't run a successful business like Fastcars, based on your experience of one datapoint. You may get lucky with your 25 year old cam seals. The reason so many of these cars fail is because of shortcuts. If you just swapped your belts you don't know where your timing is. You would have to do the most important part of the major again at additional cost if your seals started to leak. Doing a proper major means cams out pins out seals violated. What customers need to know is that quality shops will not polish a turd for a fast sale. No good comes to a shop who would do an incomplete job have the seals fail or timing off and fail smog only to have the car back in the shop with owners saying it did not leak when brought. In or it passed smog last year then try and educate customers after the fact. Time is best spent educating customers on what is a good major service and why and receive a fair fee for it. That is how you build win win brand loyalty. I dont use fastcars since I'm a DIY guy but many local socal guys do. They have the quality reputation they have for good reason.

 

You don't have to pull the engine out to do a full major on a 328, but it will still run you around $5500 for someone to do it properly so factor that Into your decision to purchase or not .

 

Well, there is a dirty little secret about setting timing that I have never read here and frankly don't intend to share. But that's off topic. The OP asked if a belt swap could be done at a gettogether. The straight answers is and always will be that a belt swap takes about a day. Now, whether a belt swap should dictate a complete major service with valve adjustment if the car has only seen a couple of thousand miles over an extended period of time is another issue which we obviously disagree on. Just as a reference point, as you, know I bought my 308 new in 85. For the first ten years I had it serviced at the dealer I bought it from. Took it there ever year for fluids changes, etc. It hit 15k miles when 5 years old. They knew the history of the car. Not once during those previous 5 years did they even suggest that the belts should be changed because they were too old. When I bought it in for the 15k major I was asked if I wanted cam seals and belts. Note, I was asked, because back then belts were only to be inspected at 15k. I have every confidence in that shop knowing what they were doing and I'm quite sure they didn't single out my car or me regarding what services were performed when or at how many miles. My confidence in them comes for the fact that it was the same shop that Paul Newman raced his Z cars out of. Today I take my car to an independent run by one of the same mechanics that worked at that shop back in the 80's. And they have a very good reputation as well and work almost exclusively on high value, vintage Ferraris. Anyway, I'm not trying to high jack this thread and take it OT, but there is a very different mind set about how these cars are serviced today compared to when they were new, and what people buy into.

Yes certainly you can not guarantee that 10 year old cam seals won't start leaking tomorrow any more that you can guarantee that the main seal won't start leaking, or that a cam drive bearing seal won't fail. And you can not guarantee that a new seal won't start leaking in a month either (seen it more than once), or that the valve cover gaskets won't start leaking. You should know what a PITA they are on a 3x8. So the idea that you are open up the top end to adjust valves on an engine that has seen a few thousand miles since the last valve adjustment but is otherwise leak free when all it needs is belts due to age is ridiculous. Where does it stop? I do accept that a major should include belts and cam seals, but why not cam drive bearings and front and rear main seals? And why go to all the expense of adjusting valves and changing belts and seals when a head gasket could go any time? Mine as well pull the heads and replace head gaskets too. And while the heads are off it only makes sense to do vales and guides. If you have been around Ferraris for more than 30 years, as I have, you can see how the servicing of these cars has been pushed more an more to include more and more in the name of preventive services. An remember, we are talking about a 3x8 here, not a 348 or 355. First recommended belt change on a 308 was at 30k miles. No mention of age. Then it became 5 years, then Ferrari said all V8s should have belts at 3 years. And now you guys are pushing that you can not do a simple belt swap and misleading people about timing and such to the point where a belt change should be a complete major. So what you are saying is, if you go by Ferrari's recommendation of belts every 3 years, that by default a 3x8 needs a major every 3 years regardless of mileage. Oh, FBB, I have a very nice bridge in Brooklyn I'd love to sell you.

 

Peter, the more important question is how many miles has the car seen during those 10 years? Has it just sat, or has it been driven regularly? You really have several ways to go here. If it's been driven frequently but not accumulate more than about 5k miles or so, and there are no oil leaks you can do a belt swap and tensioners alone. If it has just sat, basically unused for several years, you may want to consider a full major, more for the seals than actually needing valve adjustment. In either case, if you do the belts/tensioners DIY, and hold off on the major it should only cost you your time and a couple hundred dollars. So you wouldn't be out much if a seal goes and it had to be addressed before a full major is needed as per mileage. Lastly, if it has accumulated closer to 15k miles during those 10 years, then it's due for a complete major.

 

What I never understand is why people spend so much time doing jobs wrong. An old professor once said to us kids, "if you dont have time to do it right the first time when are you going to have time to do it again."

 

John's post speaks logic as he always does. Nothing he stated indicates him advocating doing a job wrong, quick or incomplete.