Tony Stewart hits and kills fellow racer

I'm sure a jury will be mightily swayed by your opinion.

CW

 

Another contradiction!!

Your killing me.

 

+288

If you watch the vids, the cars have not even slowed down to an even pace as they pass by, Tony had just gotten to a slower pace in that corner. Also - under caution, a lot of attention is paid to the car directly in front of you. Similar to the old arcade game where you pilot a snake/worm, in a caution situation, you rely on the lead car to navigate obstacles, and you follow what is in front. Safety works will let the chain pass, rather than step through the middle of the chain. There is absolutely no deviation up the track into Ward whatsoever on Tony's part, no intimidation, he, like the driver in front of him, is trying to get to the bottom of the track at suboptimal handling speeds.

Weight/Aero. I don't run a camera when karting, I'm 6' 2" and that hurts bad enough, add a huge aero drag on my helmet? NO FREAKIN' Way! NASCAR mandates a camera pod on all cars, so whether teams mount a camera or not, its fair. The only way you'll see camera's on all the sprint cars, is if its mandated. Otherwise, just the guy that really really needs some promotional footage will have it, and typically, in a heat race, not a main.

And indeed, digital camera's in low lighting are doing a "long exposure" - the problem with this, is all the pixels end up putting in their feed back at different times, this creates missplaced objects when you involve motion and low light levels.

If this effect is not taken into account, it looks like Ward launches himself at Tony Stewart. Tony did not go up the track, and as he's already cornering, has little option to go down the track. The foot availible suggests strongly that Ward lunged towards the #14, whether he tripped, and couldn't stop himself or time, wasn't thinking about the tire sticking out past the car, or intended to make physical contact with the cage of Tony's car is in doubt to me as Ward is obscured from view by the car, the light levels are low, and the digital camera's are not entirely accurate in those conditions. Ward wasn't using his head, and ran into Tony's tire, Tony did not do anything to hit Ward. Again - quality of footage is low, but close anylization, and drawing lines to measure distances and references make it pretty clear Tony was following the bottom of the track just like the #45 in front of him, that Ward was nearly clipped by the #45, and that Ward came further down the track. As a race driver, you don't expect another driver to throw themselves in front of you. With expectation, maybe Tony could of gone down the moment he the #45 nearly clip him, but a sane human would think if the car in front missed him, that you yourself would miss them if you took the same path, Ward did pause for a moment at the back of the #45, this would give Tony reasonable doubt that the #45 would not step into his path.

Tony, in one frame I can see, is focused forwards, as he should be. At the point Ward re-started his down track movement, he might not even be in Tony's field of view, but Tony would of certainly seen ward when the #45 nearly clipped him.

 

... so long as you're in organized motor sport, you are free to cross-hair fellow competitors, to include the singling-out and running down of helpless pedestrians, save who may. A professional bloodsport, the only place human beings are wholly unencumbered by constraint of financial responsibility, and impervious to common law, on any recognized organized motor sport facility you may help yourself, nurfing fellow competitors, corner marshals or by-standards to their death, and if need be next lap around, back over him, and finish the job, with little to no consequence to yourself, whatsoever.

Of course, the most important thing you must always remember thereafter is, whensoever expose to the glare of media exposure, to have audacity and wherewithal to exclaim how no words are sufficient to describe how overcome you are, with great sadness over this terrible accident...

It works like clockwork, without fail, every single time... Tell the chumps what they need to hear — asj.

 

Congratulations! You are the Flash G of motorsports.

 

Ask the Williams team about being impervious to Italian law

 

And the Troll Award goes to...

 

Not from around here, aren't ya?

Kai

 

*You're

CW

 

With equal respect, opinions from someone who met TS or who has friends who work for him aren't without some amount of bias. Agreed, he might be a nice guy, but the nice guy killed someone Saturday night and you would think that with his experience level and from what he has to lose, he could control himself a little more. Maybe the old man forgot he was in an open wheel car and couldn't just nudge Ward with the bodywork. He has to live with it; we don't.

 

I would imagine that like the many educated racer insights to be found in previous posts that try to give accurate opinions of the track conditions and car behaviour, input from people that have even a little intimacy with the people involved and CAN comment as to character should be allowed in this thread.
As usual, the trial by internet brings out the most ridiculous comments which twist somehow into fact.

 

totally unacceptable to accuse someone of such a crime without any evidence to back it up. Remember, as it stands today, he will not be prosecuted. There is simply no reason to do so. You should be banned from this forum.

 

I think there are enough legitimate questions (and concerns) about TS' actions such that it's appropriate to discuss and consider. I don't think he's been convicted of anything, herein.

While the possibility of a criminal trial will exist until the statute of limitations runs (5 years in NY for manslaughter and no limit for murder), it is more likely that there will be a civil trial, in which, legal theories will be argued, procedural rules obeyed and evidence presented. Likely, by demand, there will be a jury weighing that evidence. Competent counsel can make their cases, and we'll see what they think of the whole mess.

But, that doesn't mean the world isn't going to talk about it in the meantime.

CW

 

Fact is, a car driven by TS struck Ward under a caution. Ward succumbed to those injuries. Ward's own actions contributed to that event, but that does not, entirely, exonerate TS. Criminal charges are always possible until the statute runs. There will likely be a civil trial to determine what %age of apportioned blame TS is responsible for. This is under a theory of the last clear chance doctrine.

I don't know if something's being lost in translation, or there's some different filter you're looking at this from, but, subject to the rules of this forum, a poster can say what he feels.

CW

 

Below is a post from a parallel thread in silver (http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/silver-subscribed-private-forum/457401-racing-murder-2.html) that gives those of us not familiar with Sprint car a very good idea of the visibility for the driver. This is pretty enlightening in the context of this discussion:

 

Is this the first time a driver has been killed in this scenario?
I'm amazed that there is no existing (or enforced) penalty harsh enough in place that deters drivers from blatantly endangering their lives and safety of others by walking towards the cars going by, and in the case of others that have acted like this- actually throwing helmets & etc at those passing by. I'm not talking about a monetary fine that some of these guys can cover easily or a points/championship penalty that can be overcome in a few races, I'm talking about a significant suspension or something to get the point across that you will probably get killed taking that kind of a risk that goes beyond what already exists being a racer.

 

So, I watched the Ribbs video. For comparison...

LiveLeak.com - Horrible accident. Hit by F1. (comments)

While the facts are in ways similar (a car, under caution, hits a track worker who dies), there are some important distinctions.

The track worker was not intending to put himself in front of Ribbs. He wasn't even looking in Ribbs' direction when he was struck from behind.

More importantly, maybe, to the current incident is that Ribbs had no possible beef with a track worker who wasn't calling him out for stuffing him in the wall and putting him out of the race. Any driver knows how important the safety crews are. I don't think it's possible to find any intent on the part of Ribbs.

None of this means that Ribbs could not have slowed more or even potentially stopped to avoid those workers (he actually hit three, fortunately killing only one). It's a very narrow part of the track where this occurred and, due to the barriers and driving position, Ribbs certainly couldn't see through the corner, but track workers were surely waving caution flags. Maybe even waving two (if they had two at the station, which is a higher degree of caution than one just waving and far higher degree than one stationary flag displayed).

Impossible at some point to avoid, as two bodies cannot physically occupy the same space. In one incident (Ribbs), I don't think there's any way to conclude that it was anything but an accident. In the other (TS), there remains the possibility that something else was going on. Ultimately, I stand by my belief that TS isn't going to be charged, criminally, without more, but there will likely be a civil trial to determine fault.

CW

 

That camera is mounted pretty high. They can see a lot more than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c34e-6Gg-88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6AHPvhe3NM

 

Yes, I think it's useful to see that. I also think that the mounting position of the camera changes the view to some extent. Re-positioning the camera down to where the driver's eyes would produce an even better example of what the driver actually sees.

Also, the collision with Ward's person occurred under caution at far below race speeds. TS wasn't going sideways at the time. That's not to say the view might be significantly different, but it was probably more like the first few minutes of the video (as opposed to being at full-throttle). It would also mean there's more time to react and focus on what's coming at you.

To me, being under caution means you're no longer "racing", either. Certainly not at the station where the flag is being thrown. As stated, and I happened to omit, under caution, you stay in position. You cannot gain or lose anything. There's no reason or incentive to try to pass or defend being passed. The important thing is to give the safety workers the opportunity to respond.

CW

 

Exactly what I was talking about.

Thanks.

It does change the perspective, I think.

CW

 

I was thinking this over, in comparison to the death of Dale Sr..did they ALL kill him, that day?

No, a racing accident occurred.

This was a racing accident, yet I strongly agree the sanctioning body should now take severe and direct action, concerning the "jump from the car" temper tantrums.

Good for the show, bad for personal safety.

 

Maybe there is a cultural difference between what I wrote and what you are thinking I wrote. His car is shown on video hitting a person who died. What do you call that? If you are in a warzone and you fire a weapon and it hits someone who dies, didn't you kill them?

If you knock a flower pot off a 3rd floor window and it hits someone who dies, didn't you kill them?

I would agree that this is not yet a criminal issue but there is no disputing TS killed the other driver with his car. He may not have done it intentionally but it happened nonetheless.

 

There is nothing wrong with walking out of the car to gesture/show displeasure. Just don't jump onto or into the path of the cars. Ward either tripped, or tried to lunge at Tony. In the three frames before he dissapears he starts a rapid acceleration towards the #14. Given the #14 is following the #45, and there was perhaps about a foot between ward and the #45, Ward running at the #14 put him in harms way. The car obscures it, maybe he tried to punch tony, I dunno. Tony is still in a corner, and doesn't have much option for turning left at reduced speed/downforce.

I am ok with driver's getting out - but they take responsibility for themselves by doing so. Some tracks/situations its a far better idea to stay in the car.