Alfa 4C - "Without The Heart We Would Be Mere Machines"

The 4C can be bought with a "sports" exhaust. The sports exhaust is basically a straight through exhaust. From what I've heard it sounds awesome.



Mark

 

Yet the boxster is walking all over this thing.

The boxster from the reviewers so far shows, better engine(NA), better sound, better suspension/handling, better steering. Hell the boxster still comes in manual, far more of a purist feature than the 4c paddles.

The only area's I'm seeing the 4c being better is and this is subjective is looks and lighter weight. Other than that, what should ferrari or porsche learn from this 4c?

 

People like to argue numbers. Numbers are really meaningless. If you care how many MB a car stereo should have for MP3 song storage, the 4c is not for you.

It's not about numbers. Its about what a car does to you emotionally when you drive it. A sports car should be an emotional experience. This is what has been lost.

It's the difference between the honest feel of a classic car versus the synthetic Luxo GT's made today.

It's why people still like to drive classic cars today over their artificial modern counterparts, even if they are much slower. When you have to pump in artificial sounds into the cabin through the stereo speakers to give you that emotion, you know something is wrong. It would not surprise me at all if Ferrari does it with the 458 replacement to get over the turbo sound problem. McLaren already does.

The 4c is not for everyone. Thank heavens. It may not be perfect but we can hope it is the wave of the future.

 

We are losing the glorious engine sounds, but the lightweight focus is doing a comeback. I don't know how I feel about this.

Thank God Caterham and Lotus still makes cars (even though the Lotuses have become relatively fat too, compared to previous generations). I have always said that if petrol became scarce and I could only have one car, it would be a Caterham 7.

 

I agree about the #'s being irrelevant. But it's the other factors, like steering feel, exhaust sound, engine responsiveness, manual trans ect ect. These are usually some of the other factors separate that give people the unique feel you are speaking of. Unfortunately in all these area's the 4C fell flat, so I'm not seeing what else it's bringing to the table, if not #'s or emotional response/drivers feel?

I loved the idea of this car and it's still early, so I hold out hope. But from the guys to review it so far, it's not what it should have been. And certainly, from the vids I've watched, the sound is not emotional or visceral, thats for sure.

I think lotus has nailed the lightweight/steering overall raw feel package better than any other car manufacture to date. I'm personally am a fan of the exige and have considered it possibly as a dedicated track car.

Anyway, while a bit disappointed, the 4C is a very cool car and I look forward to owners on fchat sharing their experiences.

 

Well said.
Pete

 

I went to check out a local dealer near me that just put up their new sign about three weeks ago. Also the list of dealers list is quite large for Texas but it may not be finalized, how many of these 4C's are being built for the US anyway?
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500 launch editions. Then there are supposed to be 1500 or so for the US a year -- but few actually believe it.

 

So between 82 to 86 north American dealers is about 18 4C's year, those are some high hopes Alfa wants to have 300 dealers total for North America but any word on selling the Mito & Giulietta over hear also? To have that many dealers their going to have to bring in other production lines.

 

Many of the US dealers are also FIAT dealers.

 

Except it has questionable dynamics and a very pedetrian motor.

Sublime handling and a turbo V6 froma the Ghibli and we woudl have a worthy dino sucessor for 150K.

As it is we have a typical alafa, half baked greatness.

What is great about this car, two things, the stying/size and CF tub.
On the demierrits side has to be strut suspesion and econo car motor.

In fact its truly amazing that the CF tub which is brilliant is then sadlled with bendy suspension. And the motor, so it has an aluminum block on an otherwise pedestrian format.

 

Except the best journalists in the world have driven it and disagree with you. Bendy suspension? Find one person who has driven the car that says that.

Alfa is doing what it has always done post war -- take components from standard high production cars, modify them a little bit, and put them into a sporty yet economical format. Is there something wrong with that?

Here's the alternative -- Ferrari uses Fiat parts, changes the parts numbers, and increases the parts price 500%. I ask you, which do you prefer? Do you really like paying $1800 for two sets of shields that cost them $20?

Here is where you really miss the point -- Alfa isn't trying to be "great". It's trying to be what it's always been (before the dreaded FWD fiasco's anyway)-- FUN. Heaven forbid that a car should be designed for FUN and driving pleasure anymore. What were they thinking?

Shoot them for making a real sports and not a GT for under 80 grand. Ferrari would never do it, even though it made them a mint in the 80's.

The 4c is not perfect. No one says that. Every car made has it's compromises. But could anyone have dreamed that anyone else would have made a car like this from Italy than Alfa?

Isn't that a good thing? Isn't there a place in the world of Ferrari enthusiasts for a little respect of a light and simple car anymore?

Or must if have badges on the side and horses on the seats to be worth a damn.

 

The are redesigning the entire line to be rear wheel drive. My guess is they will share some platforms from the new Maserati's.

No FWD cars are coming to the US.

 

OK the bendy suspension aspertion was made by Chris Harris and the boys at EVO. Peoiple who get to drive a lot more cars at a lot more interesteing places than we probably do. Its their explanaition for the weird dynamics.

As to cost, Lotus elise has bespoke suspension for less money. Or did Alfa spend all the money of that groovy CF tub and then have to cheap out on the rest, or did they just cheap out ont he rest and losse the plot?.

As to motors, Alfas in their day never had pedestrian motors. The twin cam alfa unit was way beyond even what ferrari was producing in the late 50's, it was just 4 cyl.

So I dont see where alfa traditionaly(before the Fwd fiasco to use your words) took parts from standard cars. No Alfa be it a berlina spider etc could be compared to any standard type car.


But hey the world is different today. So lots of cars use standard of the rack type motors, lotus famously do and Honda motors are exteremly well regarded in some circles, I guess Fiat no longer builds great 4 cyl motors..

No issue at all with a FUN car, pretty much every car I own (except the equinox) is a fun car for fun driving. Fun to me would imply great dynamics, and you dont hear the alfa being praised like say a pedestriam miata is. Fun would imply a sonourois motor than can rev and have great power. Fun might even imply a stick, but many cars today dont have a stick so thats not a fail.

The alfa looks like fun, its raw numbers in terms of power seem fun. Its a raw car with some groovy tech which makes for fun. The flaws though IMO are inexcusable in the 21st century. And for all the groovy CF its a bit of a lard ass for what it is.

Lets see what the next maita looks like, it will probably weigth the same or less, have great dynamics although elss powerful will also be a stick. If youa re going to make a CF mid engined car i would expect its drivign experience to be sublime. Cant say anybody says that about the Alfa.

I can be cruel and say its a gimick car. It has gimick styling and gimick CF tub, when you remove those two componants from the equation its really not that great. In short a CF tub and Italian styling is not enough to carry the car..

The sad part is, and its the really really sad part, is that with the styling and CF tub had they gotten the other parts rigth it could have been a seminal car, one of the greats, one of the first light high performance cars of the new era. You know using a stiff tub, great styling and off the rack componants to create somethign superlaive, a cross between a lotus and a porche.The 4c may develop inot that, but so far its way off what the concept implied. Pssibly the FWD fiascio has denuded alfa of peopel who kknow how to make a great driving car, even the 8c was questionable in that regard, but it had a CF body(I know not a CF tub) and looked great..

What woudl Lotus fdo witht he 4C> If i were Sregio and really cared I woudl send the 4c to lotus for polishing. I woudl spend the extra $$ to certify the motor with some higher lift cams and better boost.

Anyway let me not judge, we will see how the 4c fares at a De event whenever they show up.

Funny how the car that supposedly has good steering and handles well these days is called corvette, brought to from the nation that previously had no clue about these things. If GM can make a car steer and drive rigth so can Alfa, I hope.

As to badges etc, you do relaise I drive that car with a lesser badge and more crudeness than an Alfa, its called a Lotus elise, so I really woudl love the Alfa to be great because they dont make elsiees anymore. I think the 4c is sellign on styling CF and badge. sad really. And yes I appalud the effort and gumption, now thye have to get it right. It does not have to be perfect, flaws are even part of the charm, but it does have to drive great and have a great motor, these are things thta I think of when I think of alfas of old. Not weird dynamics, crappy soundig motors that dont love to rev...

It alsmost remids me of the Fiero, it too had a stiff tub and looked great, but GM put econocar mechanicals in it. Years later they put good suspensuon and abetter motor in, by then it was dead.

 

It is a gimick car because the styling is like a mini-F430 which is a shame. I've seen much more "Alfa" looking styling designs by amateurs.

Anyway every criticism mentioned above [and bendy suspension is surely impossible or a miss-use of the word bendy. Back in the 70's F1 cars had bendy suspension because it was early days of inboard suspension and the top wishbone was a rocker to an inner spring shock unit. These top wishbones deflected and thus were bendy] will be resolved by real Alfisti owners.

I think ensuring you select the smaller wheel size and therefore performance over looks will solve a lot of the criticism and if necessary play with the spring/shock rates until it perfectly suits you ... not many Alfisti don't do this with their cars already so this will be part of the fun .

As for the engine, again find me an Alfisti that has not modified their cars engine?. I'm probably one of the rare few in the world that has a dead standard Alfa.
Pete
ps: boxerman: You are slightly wrong about your engine comments. Yes early Alfa engines were ahead of the time but those same engines from the 1950's on were used in everything from jeep type vehicles to limited production race cars. So there are/were thousands of mums and dads dropping their kids off at school with these engines that probably never lifted the bonnet and looked at the wonderous thing.

My point is that Alfa Romeo from the 1950's on was a production car makers that produced economic(al) sporting cars that had modest performance. They were like the English Ford Escort Mk1, ie. a bit of modification and they were rockets and awesome fun, but not exotic.

Nowadays everybody makes engines that are the very best of technology. There is nothing better that Alfa Romeo can design and produce so it uses an engine that just happens to be a FIAT production car engine. So what. What other engine should the 4c have? And already tuners are over doubling the power
Pete

 

This car is not for Boxerman.

It's too honest.

 

I am reasonably positive that in time the car can be betetr developed. There are limits to strut suspension especialy if you like to track which are a drawback compared to say double wishbones, so the car will always be limited by this.

The motor can be modded for sure. Yes most manufacturers make high tech 4 bangers these dyas, but it seems thta the Alfa unit is not one of the great ones. That title seems to belong to Honda and ford these days.

The KTM never Xbow had great acceptance partly because of the anodyne motor, the newer versions witht he 5 cyl seem much more viceral.

Fita used ot have agreat 5 cyl mtor that was in the fiat coupe, thye probably just dont have great mtors these days.

Frankly I would rather pay 75k for a fully cooked 4c than 60k for ahalf baked one.

make mine with wishbones so i can play with all types of spring adjustable shock options and tunes the suspension. make mine with a mtor that revs, and possibly a stick. That to me is a copmpleling spec, what we have now is afr that migth become compellign because its relatively light and has a cf tub.

 

Yeah that is why I drive a dishonest elise.

The alfa is dishones because the styling and cf tub promise somethign the rest of the car fails to deliver.

 

See, I told you.

You have a little check list in your head. If a car doesn't hit your idea of perfection, it's just a gimmick. Its not worthy. It "fails" because your list is incomplete (aka - a manual box).

Well, a car is not the bits that make it. It's what it does as a unit. It's what it was intended to do and how well it succeeds in doing that. The Corvette C7 has leaf springs. Archaic? Yes. But do they work? Yes. Does it matter? NO.

You can't see the honesty of of design and engineering philosophy because some of your pre-conceived notions won't allow you to complete your check list.

Its too honest. It does what it was intended to please those who don't have check lists.

No one is saying the 4c is perfect. But its one hell of a lot better than that Ferrari luxury BOAT factory is producing today. The proof is you can order a current Ferrari with a $6000 boat anchor to throw overboard.

 

Why not the exige?

 

The so called "check list" came after the reviews were not praisworthy. What seems to be going on is people falling in love with the idea of the thing, which I get, and then making nay number of excuses for it. There is no reason except execution why this is not asublime machine, and from whatw eread its not a sublime machine.

There are lots of things you can get from multiple reviews. Like porches are too good/bland. That has been my experience with all thebones I drove from 996 up, except the 997 gt3. And I never read any bad review of a 997 gt3.

Yes there is lots of bias in reviews, usualy positive bias but also lots of truth.

Pretty much everything good and bad I read about the C6 vette seemed correct on the ones I drove.

Pretty much everything I ever read about an elise is correct too.

So if I read from multiple sources that a 4c is less than a sublime drive, that its weird on the limit, thta the steering has a weirs on ceneter feel. That the mtoor sounds more like a blare, if the spec sheet itsellf shows a 6500 redline in 2014 and if its PDK only, then it moves of my must have list.

Now there are lots of peopel who make lots of excuses for lots of cars. Many thought th C6 build was good, I guess the c6 delivered in other ways for them so they could overlook.
The new 5 series BMW drives more like a caddy of old and not as the ultimate drivign machine, the reviews constantly say this too, but for many itds preferable.

For me the 4c should steer like a lotus and have a charismatic engine. It should not be bland and boring like a porche. Well they got the not bland and boring part right.

An honest design in acr would not compromise to the extent the 4c does on driving dynamics. A miata does not compromise there and thta is a 25k car.

 

Tried the exige. There is serious supercharger whine, you cant see out the back, and the looks are more of an acquired taste. An exige is exactly the same chassis as an elise with a supercharger and a bodykit. For the street an exige is much more limited and I suppose to me it did not deliver enough extra on track.

An elise is actualy lighter than and exige. I didnt think the aero on the exige was really relevant. On a shorter small track the supercharger does not do much and they have heat soak issues. Out the box an exige is bettr on track, but really less of a car for backroad street driving, I like to do both.

Or maybe I am a just a purist(tongue in cheek), and wanted a car that would be good on street and track. The risk of the dual path is you get a car that does not excell at either. On the elise I changed to adjutable Ohlins shocks rotors pads and an adjustable front sway bar. Stffen up the shocks, put slicks on it and the car does the tracks great, and is still sublime on street.

A car you can drive on street too has multples more use and you can spend more seat time bonding with it, which helps when you get to the track. The loti are so great and so much fun, why limit ones self to just track.

If you really wanted to go faster in an elise then the aftermarket superchargers produce way more Hp than an factrory exige setup, a freind has close to 300hp at the wheels, but it becomes a different animal.

In my mind small tossable car does not need excess hp, the lack of hp forces you to learn how to maintain momentum through bends to get speed, you woudl be surpised how fast a well sorted elise can go round a track. I guess once you get that part right then you can always add power to the car for the straight bits. But an elsie jusyt seems to bvalance all the forces so well. I thought the Alfa would do the same just on a higher level.

On the street and elise, its not a drag car, neither is an exige, so the roads you drive have alarge effect on its experience and rlevancy. But in NW CT where I drive on the twisty backroads an elsie on the boil is already way faster than you can sanely or even half sanely go. Yes you have to work for the speed, but to paraphrase a poster above no "boat anchor" ferrari is going to keep up on twisty backroads. The way you can attack dends and the security with which you can doi it in an elise, yet with feedback is somethign no other machine I have tried approaches.

I see so many people in fast PDK type car who drive terrible lines and never learn, mostly because the car is too much and their sense of speed great from the power that they dont have to learn.

I love driving my ferrari too, its all drama, very comfortable in comparison, the motor sounds great and the resposnes are pure through the controls. But compared to an elsie there is no comparison. I do wish for a ferrari elise, soemthign like an elsie with a really great Italian motor, some italian drama and looks. The alfa is not it for multiple reasons from what I read, although it could have been, so that is my gripe. Nor is a 4c a proche comfort car, so what is it really?

I also like driving my M3, like it, dont love it. Its too soft when you lean on it, and yet hard in other ways, its responses too dluted, but it does a job, the Ac works great you can drive easily to the shops and its good on the highway. It flaw probably stems from weight as much as anything.

To go really fast on big tracks and in contradiction to my small car philosophy now I am building a superfromace Gt40. Its light though at 2350 lbs, it probably wont beat a new vette z06, although some lap the glenn at close to 2 mins in Gt40s, so maybe its just me that will be slower in it than a I would be in a new vette. But its a well sorted car that does what its supposed to as it should, an honest car without weird dynamics and it has a great motor. For that I am prepared to accept lesser build, low height and a loss of practicality.

Its the 21st century even the koreans have good motors. The Alfa had everything going for it in concept. The execution from what I read, and I read past the gloss, is seriously lacking. I dont care about the cheap inetrior, road noise or other irrelevant flaws, I can overlook those for the drive. That the car is small fun and tossable is a given, but all the rest is just not there. If i want small tossable and chaismatic I can get that in a Morgan 3 whgeeler too, or an elise, the Alfa should deliver way more than it does dynamicaly, or charismaticaly.

The alfa promised to be an 21st century Italian lotus, the anti boxetr, a car witha cf tub so stiff there woudl not be handling comprimses, the stiffness would allow for compliance and decent ride too. Pretty much any italian car that is coveted has a motor to die for and a sound that is somehting you want to hear over and over. Its the Italian DNA. From what I read the Alfa has neither of these pieces.

Drive a miata, then you relaise that any other great small sports car(alfa) should deliver what a maiata does and then more. The Alfa should deliver what a Miata does with beytter dynamics more feedback more power and betetr grip/handling. It seems to me other than accelration and looks it delivers less. But I guess for some prior posters here(not midnight oil) looks paper spec and gloss is the checklist.

I get it that people want the Alfa to deliver what ferraris used to(308,355 etc) in a affrodable modern package without the bogus prancing horse badge, it just doesent.

If the way a a car drives and goes is a priority and badge and creature comforts is not critical a lotus is the way to go by far. Have said it many times and it bears repeating, if you only ever had one sportscar in your life, and that was an elige, you would have missed nothing.

Appologiues fort he rant, but the 4c is appearing to be more hype becaise of a CF tub than an actualy great machine. Fastest is not the best.

 

Hey Guys, thanks for all the entertainment value you are offering with this rant on a car you have never actually driven yourself but are relying on others for your opinion. They may be right, or not, but that's besides the point .

 

True, but i doubt there is going to be much opportunity if any to try one before buying. People buy vipers z06s ferraris etc based on reports, not on test drives. In fact one of the latest darlings the z28 how you going to test drive one of those? yet lots of peopel buying them based on positive reports both in the press and then from owners.

In fact how do you even know about these limired prod cars execpt from reports.

Normaly if Chris harris/evo likes a car, when I try one I pretty closely agree with theri views. Except yeak i find caymans and regular 911s to be bland, and the newer ferrars BORING except at 9-10/10ths.

 

From personal experience there is definitely opportunity through a reputable dealer, but in any case, even if that were not true, its entertaining as a reader to see all the mud slinging going on back and forth from all you armchair experts.