Alfa 4C - "Without The Heart We Would Be Mere Machines"

And herein we see the problem witht he 4c.

The accelration times are close, which is a function of lightness.
The longer stopping distances and slower slalom for the 4c is inexcusable, lightness should make these quicker.
A lighter car with good brakes should easily stop in less distance.
And a light short car should be a slalom master.
But strut suspension and cheap bits have an effect.
Also considier how fast the 4c might be with a bit of a hero mtor.

Of course a TTV6 6c might well smoke a ferrari too.

FCA seems intent to build cars that are sort of just good enough, no reaching for greatness.

 

I just spotted the 4C on the road for the very first time. It has a totally different level of presence than the Cayman. It stands out and certainly looks the part - wide and like a proper mini supercar.

What surprised me greatly was that it actually sounded very nice. With the small turbo engine I wasn't sure how it was going to sound. We followed in the same tunnel and he floored it, it was a sporty and raspy sound with an exhaust "pop" too! That made me smile.

Bravo Alfa, for giving us something different. I don't lust after it, but I'm glad it exists.

 

At that price it will put it in the territory of the new Audi TT coming out. I know a lot of people are pointing towards slalom and the lack of the performance ability with the suspension.

Of course the TT will be a little heavier but for the same price and around 310BHP and a more refined and better performing suspension setup makes this an easy decesion. That and the insurance will be more than likely be cheaper because of the lack of exotic materials the 4C which is one of it's Achilles tendon's.

 

Objective performance comparisons with the C7 and other cars is interesting. No substitute for "feel" and there are always some weather/driver variations of course but round numbers don't lie.

Looking at Road and Track data (700' course, 100' cone spacing; Edmunds doesn't reveal the dimensions of their slalom*):

current (i.e. 2005-era) ****ty Mazda Miata on Bridgestone Potenza 205/45R-17s hit 69.7 mph http://www.roadandtrack.com/cm/roadandtrack/data/7242c71afb9c7c6c6e2ba6b0affe1205.pdf

Monster 2011 Z06 (no slalom test of the C7 yet? WTF R&T?) on Michelin Pilot Sport 285/30ZR-19s hit 74.1mph http://www.roadandtrack.com/cm/roadandtrack/data/RT_To-the-Power-of-12_data.pdf

Boring 2011 Caymen S made 72.9 mph on Pilot Sport 235/40ZR-18s
http://www.roadandtrack.com/cm/roadandtrack/data/CT_2010-Lotus-Evora-vs-2009-Porsche-Cayman-S_data.pdf

R&T hasn't put a 4C on the slalom yet but when they do if it doesn't soundly trounce the skinny-tired, wimpy motored, steel framed, 1/3 price Miata it should hang it's gorgeously coiffed, perfectly tanned head in shame.

* for the record, Edmund's results:
C7 on Michelin Pilot Sport P285/30ZR19/20: 73.1mph

4C on on Pirelli P-Zero 235/35ZR19/20: 71.4 mph

 

Sounds like a great drivers car - Finesse etc. Hard to understand the slant against especially those with zero time in the car.

--Handling:

Slalom: In Dynamic mode, the electronic stability control system (ESC) is so distant as to be almost non-existent — and I believe it may be watching/monitoring steering angle and yaw rate to see if they match up. It will allow lurid slides and only engages if a spin is immanent. Being so, I discovered that while drifting/sliding past cones is exquisitely entertaining, it is not the quickest path through the course. Tight and tidy wins. This is the kind of car that, at the limit, is so delicate and precise, with so much information streaming through the quick-ratio steering that it feels as if it could be easily balanced on a pin. The balance between front and rear grip is so even and, better yet perceptible, that a skilled driver will innately steer with the throttle as much as the steering wheel. The car quite literally rotates about an axis between the two seats. The tires offer progressive and predictable break-away characteristics. Put some track-only tires on this car and it is already ready for the track. In Natural mode, the ESC is less lenient, but when it does engage, it does so quickly, effectively, and then recedes just as quickly.--

 

Sounds more like an enetrtaining car to drive on the road. A great drivers car needs superlative dynamiocs, never heard anyone accuse the 4c of that, and slalom for a small light car shoudl be better than a bigegr heavier car like the vette, esp as acceleration etc is so close.

What slalom time for an exige?

 

I see it exactly as you posted above. Its a fun car on the road, good for the track but not a complete track car. Thats ok as we certainly have room in the market for a car that is light, fun, exotic materials and brings simple joy of driving. I find this video Boxerman to exactly display this. I have not watched too many video's or reviews as my test was superb. I find this a good one and the out-take at the end portends of an 'Italian' car Enjoy!

2015 Alfa Romeo 4C: The Most Affordable Supercar! - Ignition Ep 113 - YouTube

 

At $75k I personally am looking at a 360, not the 4c. That said, it wouldn't have killed Alfa to do a nice 2 liter motor and have the hp closer to 300. This could have been the base engine in the new Alfa sedan also, seeing as how the Germans and jaguar too are all doing the 2 liter turbo dance.

 

aren't they still planning a few upgrades and higher HP versions?

 

I'm very late to this thread. But this IS the car we have been wanting and waiting for. The answer to the question posed above must be yes. This car has so much going for it. It would be hard to imagine that Alfa will not make the most of it.

The video a couple posts up is very good. I like that the driver is telling it like it is. This is a car we drive for enjoyment. He calls it a toy. It is owned to put smiles in the miles.

The comparison to an Evora, I don't get. Though I'm going out to test drive an Evora now. It's probably going to be one or the other. Little sports car heaven ahead. ... Also I don't get the 430 connection. ... The headlights, I wish were a little different, but it is what it is. A little sports car that we've all been wanting to get our hands on.

I can't wait. Three cheers for Alfa and their 4C !!!

 

Browsing about at https://4c.alfaromeo.com/, the specs look great. Forged wheels are an option. We see a double wishbone suspension in front and I would advise not to discount the rear suspension just yet. I hear the headlamps are redesigned a bit. If not, I have to bet there will be aftermarket headlamps. Plus, the nice thing about a turbo, we can always turn up the wick.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWV6TWsNqlw&list=PL0NpLqqFBFSKU4MzZo2Edo5TgaEOAg42E]Alfa Romeo 4C: (Snake) One Take - YouTube[/ame]

 

WOW...that video says it all for me. Looks like screaming fun...isn't that what it's all about?

 

EXACTLY! awesome car.

They selling these in the USA yet? If so, where? Last I heard select Maserati dealers may be OR Fiat dealers.... I haven't heard any final word on that though.

 

Went to a small Alfa get together at Maserati of Walnut Creek, CA today. It was nice to see some older well-loved Alfas and some owners enthusiastic about their older Alfas as well as the 4C on the floor. Not sure if that one is spoken for but things are moving along with launch editions coming soon.

 

Getting better.


Alfa Romeo 4C High-Performance Version Breaks Cover » AutoGuide.com News

 

any talk about a manual transmission option in the future ?

 

I am willing to bet not. Alfa is part if the Fiat collusus, they dont even do mnauals on ferraris. The 4c would need a dedicated box, designed just for it, highly unlikely.

 

It's impossible to fit it in the current packaging.

The manual ship has sailed. Even Chevy, the last hold out, says at the end of production less than 20% of all C7's will be manuals.

 

Actualy we are going to see a renaisance of manuals. Sedans, like mseries amg etc can outperform many sportscars, at least on street paper spec. What many a fast car does not offer is an engaging driving experience. A manual sportscar offers what other fast cars do not a uniquely viceral and engaging experience, it is a usp a reason to buy a sprtscar over a competitors hopped up sedan.

Chevy is far from the last holdout. M seieis BMWs are a 30% takeup rate and challenger srt's soemthign like 60%. Z28 camaros of course 100% and people said a 75k camaro so raw and expensive could never sell, but the first prod run of 2500 is sold out. There are plenty of peopel who happily pay extra for fast fun raw and engaging cars. Yes its not a majority, but ti certainly is a viable and significant minority.

Its always amazing how people want to insist manuals are dead, almost enforce a no manuals edict, I guess they need valdation of their paddle choices by banning manuals. Anything option that sells between 20-30% of a cars production run is far from dead. Possiobly driving skills amongst the 70% of people who buy fast cars for reasons other than driving pelasure is dead, but it was always thus. As long as I can rememeber the majority of vettes have been auto, look at who buys most of them and why.

the most produced sportscar int he world the Miata is a manual and the new one looks set to continue that trend. Where the good mitsubihi evo came pdk only we see the car going out of production, yet the wrx which is manual only does better.

I think its safe to say that high end euro manufacturers for reasons of lazyness and expcess profit have abandoned manuals. I guess with thie brand cachet they can do that.

in any event there is not an existing FWD manual setup at fiat that i know of that woudl work in the 4c(could be worng), which essentialy has the powertrain of a fwd econo car in the middle, much like and elise has a celica GTs pwertrain in the middle.

 

It may depend on where you look in the market. 50% of this last generation of GTIs were manuals. In the E90 BMW M3, 45% of cars sold had 3 pedals (this includes convertibles). For the Subaru BRZ 70% are manuals, while its Scion sibling has 60% with manual transmission.

At the very "bleeding edge" of performance, manuals aren't really present anymore, but it is wrong to say that the manual ship has sailed.

Understanding What's Really Killing the Manual Transmission - Road & Track

 

With all the stupid options offered, a manual transmission would be a meaningful option for some. I really do not care if it is actually slower.

 

Conclusion of the R&T article

"Purdy was wrong back then, and most corporate statisticians are wrong today—enthusiasts crave fun first and speed second, and the two aren't always linked. Yes, the manual has disappeared from race cars. And it's disappearing from boring cars. But the clutch pedal is alive and well. You just have to know where to look."

Currently the Alfalfa 4c is sold out. there is going to be little inclination to try offer a manual. If there isa FWD car in fiats lineup that offers a manaul that mates with this block a mnaual is a technical possibility. Does the Dart affer a manual?

As to why belleding edge perfomance cars dont offer a manual. Simple PDK offer on paper a performance advanbtage and these cars are mostly bought for looks, impression and paper stats. Oner notch down into evtte vipe BMw territory we see mnauals are alive an well.

Other factors are epa rules, both for pollutants and fuel economy. These are far easier to meet with a PDK, so the inclination is to go for the bucks and drop the lesser selling manaul. BMW famously does not do this and still offfers mnaual in its M series cars.

A final factor is motor performance. From Ferrari and Porche we see smaller displacement mtors which rev tot he stratosphere to make power. This lends istelf to 7 or 8 speed pdk units. A slower reving more torquey motor lends itself more easily to manuals. Possibly with the return of lower reving more torquey turbo motors we may see a return of mnauals, but pdk can mask turbo lag in a way manuals do not.

In the end PDk works for a majority of buyers. most people drive most of the time in traffic, PDK works well there, and is useable on backroads on occasion.

For the buyer who drives on street for recreation and fun, who owns a sportscar primarily for the performance buzz a manual remains a far superior experience. For those of us who track the answers are mixed. Paddles certainly make you faster, and there is elss to focus on for weekend warriors. But speed on track comes form many factors and there is always going to be a facter car, so for some of us, the complete track experience is what counts, in which case a manual still has great appeal. Its certainly not worth being paddle only if your car spends as mnuch time on street as on track, and your street driving is for fun..

Some manufacturers see an advanage in offerign manuals, they have a high enough take up rate, 25-50%. If you didnt offer a manual would you loose sales to a company that does. I say most likely yes. Maybe Ferrari and porche think their stuff sells so well it does not matter anyway, maybe their client base is sol old they cant manage a manual anyway, my bet is we will see return of manuals in some unlikely places.

in any event as a low powered light car, the Alfalfa in my opinion would be far more desireable with a mnaual, a motor that could maybe rev 1k more and sorted suspension. Some of these issues are apprently being adressed.

 

You could get a manual in the first gen Giulietta QV (same engine as the 4C) but IIRC the hot Giulietta is now only available with the twin clutch box.

 

So potentialy the box exists, I think you can get a manaul in a dart which is also the same block. So technicaly it would be relatively easy to do. Of course such a setup requires calibration and EPA testing, Alfa probably thinks its not worth it as the car sold out anyway.

But if its a halo car, and meant to herald a revival of the sportign brand, then they should considder offering a quintessential small itailan performance car with all that implies. This means sonorous motor and the machine being alive an extenstion of yourself. The 4c is potentialy this, but misses the mark so far. Still maybe as it sells well they will considder devloping it furtehr in varuious directions.

Its interesting the Italians slavish devotion to paddles, maybe its related to auto cars always being premium in post war europe, or exess traffic conditions. the Germans seem to be hedgign their bets at BMw and Porche, mercdes not really a sportscar comoany so their auto efforts are cosistent.

And then we have the USA, long derided by europe as populated with poor drivers intent only on straight line performance. Yet it is to satisfy the Us market that BMW still offers a stick in the mseries cars.

Methinks that euro arraogance is causing them to misread their still most important market, USA. Ferrari and Alfa would do well to offer cars not onlky with a stick but with motor combos optimised for a stick instead of a stick afterthought add on as in the 991.

V10 BMW sales in the USA grew 30% when a stick was offered. The belief that people will buy the car anyway, if no stick offered is false. Any honest ferrari deraler will tell you about long time customers lost, and premiums paid for stick 360's and 430's.

Consider that in the used car market, populated more by core enthusiasts than say new alfa ferrari buyers, sticks are a very strong preference. Given reasle values of newer ferrari models they migth take into accout that sticks will support resale values and therefore brand equity.